# "Please reach out to military members" thread wrongly closed **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 2, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918 "2020-06-02T11:59:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/21 "2020-06-02T15:02:55Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Inciting rebellion is unlawful under US federal law. > [18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383) > > Which is exactly what the closed post was doing. Asking that people request soldiers to refuse to follow orders. No, the post was encouraging the military to NOT follow UNLAWFUL orders. In other words, to uphold their sworn duty to the constitution to PROTECT the citizens of this country instead of summarily executing by obeying illegal orders. The thread should not have been shut down. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/22 "2020-06-02T15:04:58Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Good luck to the admins and moderators explaining it to a judge. I think that the judiciary would start with Facebook and Twitter where people are suggesting actual unlawful rebellion before they found their way here. I am sure that a judge would agree that asking anyone not to break the law doesn’t break the law. ---
**Author:** ![faync1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@faync1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/faync1)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/23 "2020-06-02T15:05:30Z")
Left Hand of Dorkness has already made most of the replies that I would have made; but I would add that the closed OP was not a call to action, but the opposite; it was a call to inaction. That OP called on soldiers to refuse to act if issued an unlawful order that they had no duty to obey. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/24 "2020-06-02T15:11:24Z")
Yeah, bullshit thread closing. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/25 "2020-06-02T15:35:58Z")
Well, clearly I disagree. And continue to do so. I looked it up under the mutiny guidelines in the UCMJ this morning. Yes, following unlawful orders is legal. But Russian heel’s OP makes an assumption that the orders would be illegal and that’s not a jump I’m willing to make in Great Debates or Politics & Elections. If the phrasing had been ‘if those orders are unlawful you don’t need to follow them’ or something similar I’d have looked at it. But Russian heel’s OP makes a hugely and unwarranted leap in logic in assuming they would be. There are many examples of soldiers - US and otherwise - shooting on civilians in rebellion or other forms of civil disorder. The Civil War is merely the most famous example of such. There are others. Remember, people, in these trying times as my city of Charleston begins to put itself base together, that not everything Trump does may be illegal regardless of your opinion of the man. I hate him and work for his defeat everyday I’m here on Earth and I hope you do, as well. But my responsibility to the board requires me to follow the rules. That OK was clean if - and only if - you accept that Russian Heel’s proposition that firing on civilians is a war crime and would be held illegal. I’m not willing to make that assumption at the risk of the board. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/26 "2020-06-02T15:42:34Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Well, clearly I disagree. And continue to do so. > > I looked it up under the mutiny guidelines in the UCMJ this morning. > > **Yes, following unlawful orders is legal.** But Russian heel’s OP makes an assumption that the orders would be illegal and that’s not a jump I’m willing to make in Great Debates or Politics & Elections. > > If the phrasing had been ‘if those orders are unlawful you don’t need to follow them’ or something similar I’d have looked at it. But Russian heel’s OP makes a hugely and unwarranted leap in logic in assuming they would be. There are many examples of soldiers - US and otherwise - shooting on civilians in rebellion or other forms of civil disorder. The Civil War is merely the most famous example of such. There are others. > > Remember, people, in these trying times as my city of Charleston begins to put itself base together, that not everything Trump does may be illegal regardless of your opinion of the man. I hate him and work for his defeat everyday I’m here on Earth and I hope you do, as well. > > But my responsibility to the board requires me to follow the rules. That OK was clean if - and only if - you accept that Russian Heel’s proposition that firing on civilians is a war crime and would be held illegal. I’m not willing to make that assumption at the risk of the board. There are plenty of cases of soldiers convicted of crimes because “They were just following orders.” Can you link to what you read? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/27 "2020-06-02T15:46:39Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Inciting rebellion is unlawful under US federal law. > [18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383) > > Which is exactly what the closed post was doing. Asking that people request soldiers to refuse to follow orders. Refuse to follow UNLAWFUL orders. That is the opposite of rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/28 "2020-06-02T15:49:34Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Yes, following unlawful orders is legal. But Russian heel’s OP makes an assumption that the orders would be illegal and that’s not a jump I’m willing to make in Great Debates or Politics & Elections. > > If the phrasing had been ‘if those orders are unlawful you don’t need to follow them’ or something similar I’d have looked at it. But Russian heel’s OP makes a hugely and unwarranted leap in logic in assuming they would be. There are many examples of soldiers - US and otherwise - shooting on civilians in rebellion or other forms of civil disorder. The Civil War is merely the most famous example of such. There are others. > > Remember, people, in these trying times as my city of Charleston begins to put itself base together, that not everything Trump does may be illegal regardless of your opinion of the man. I hate him and work for his defeat everyday I’m here on Earth and I hope you do, as well. > > But my responsibility to the board requires me to follow the rules. That OK was clean if - and only if - you accept that Russian Heel’s proposition that firing on civilians is a war crime and would be held illegal. I’m not willing to make that assumption at the risk of the board. You’ve missed a crucial word in his OP. He’s not talking about firing on civilians, he’s talking about firing on **unarmed** civilians. It is always a war crime for military units to intentionally target unarmed civilians. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/29 "2020-06-02T15:52:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, bullshit thread closing. Agreed. And as others have noted, it’s pretty hard to believe that a call not to break the law would be interpreted as violating the law. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/30 "2020-06-02T15:53:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A call to action means talking to your family and friends? This technically falls under that rule, but if the rule really means, “Don’t encourage people to talk to family members about not committing war crimes,” we need to change that rule… He did not say family and friends. He said anyone you know in the military. It is unabashedly a call to action. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/31 "2020-06-02T16:00:13Z")
And FYI, russian heel got another thread closed a month ago by JC that was calling for a military coup to overthrow Trump. That may have coloured JC’s moderating. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=894986](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=894986) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/32 "2020-06-02T16:02:49Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Well, clearly I disagree. And continue to do so. > > I looked it up under the mutiny guidelines in the UCMJ this morning. > > Yes, following unlawful orders is legal. But Russian heel’s OP makes an assumption that the orders would be illegal and that’s not a jump I’m willing to make in Great Debates or Politics & Elections. > > If the phrasing had been ‘if those orders are unlawful you don’t need to follow them’ or something similar I’d have looked at it. But Russian heel’s OP makes a hugely and unwarranted leap in logic in assuming they would be. There are many examples of soldiers - US and otherwise - shooting on civilians in rebellion or other forms of civil disorder. The Civil War is merely the most famous example of such. There are others. > > Remember, people, in these trying times as my city of Charleston begins to put itself base together, that not everything Trump does may be illegal regardless of your opinion of the man. I hate him and work for his defeat everyday I’m here on Earth and I hope you do, as well. > > But my responsibility to the board requires me to follow the rules. That OK was clean if - and only if - you accept that Russian Heel’s proposition that firing on civilians is a war crime and would be held illegal. I’m not willing to make that assumption at the risk of the board. He specifically said “unarmed civilians”. I served in the military and I can’t conceive of a lawful order to shoot down unarmed civilians. That’s very obviously an unlawful order. If you disagree, what possible situation could such an order be lawful? This explanation ignores that the post in question specified “unarmed civilians”. I think you’re very wrong here and I hope you reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/33 "2020-06-02T16:09:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is the worry that the board will be accused of telling soldiers not to shoot unarmed civilians? That’s pretty far beyond an abundance of caution, and I don’t think we should accept that. > > In normal times, I’d think the concern was hyperbolic. I don’t want to dig too deep into the meat of the matter here, but these aren’t normal times. > [@Fiveroptic](#): > > Right? Just accept what’s going on in the world and don’t talk about it. You know, out of an abundance of caution. On a message board. Where no physical harm can come to anyone by talking about disobeying an unlawful order. > > This is exactly the mindset that got the United States into this shit to begin with. The slightest threat of any sort of legal action, and the owners of the board will shut it down. Someone at wherever this place is currently owned gets an injunction or anything like that about a thread that is encouraging military members to refuse orders, and it’s not going to matter how justified the plea is. They will simply pull the plug. As I said in another thread, just because you have the right to do something, doesn’t mean it is the wisest course of action. This board is not a soapbox or a political bullhorn. I’m sure that if a thread came up in great debates or even general questions about when an order can be questioned or disobeyed, that’d be fine. The thread in question was a call to action though, and one on controversial legal grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/34 "2020-06-02T16:19:34Z")
Again, the ground isn’t controversial: shooting unarmed civilians is a war crime. The idea that they might get an injunction because of a thread like this is completely unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![faync1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@faync1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/faync1)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/35 "2020-06-02T16:28:57Z")
Although the OP was a little hysterical in tone, and based on a premise that is unlikely in the extreme (that soldiers will be given an order to shoot and kill unarmed civilians), the gist of the post was simply this: Soldiers, in the course of your duties you may be given an unlawful order. You are not obligated to carry out unlawful orders; please do not do so. That is all the OP said, it is accurate, and there is nothing wrong with saying it ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/36 "2020-06-02T16:30:48Z")
If this is about the board’s mortal terror of legal action, then at least that’s a coherent explanation. That seems incredibly remote, but that’s much more reasonable and coherent than the suggestion that there’s any possible whiff of illegality in urging that soldiers not shoot unarmed civilians. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/37 "2020-06-02T16:31:18Z")
Jonathan Chance routinely shows that he is a terrible moderator incapable of handling those forums. I don’t know why anyone is surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/38 "2020-06-02T16:37:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Call to action: [Stand still on the escalator](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897352). > Call to action: [Democrats shouldn’t condone looting](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897116). > Call to action: [Wear a mask at the grocery store](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897024). > > The rule has never been enforced in this manner before, and it’s not why the thread was closed. Let’s not invent reasons for an improperly closed thread to be closed, if you’ll forgive my call to action. None of your examples are a call to action. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/39 "2020-06-02T16:43:23Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > … There are many examples of soldiers - US and otherwise - shooting on civilians in rebellion or other forms of civil disorder. The Civil War is merely the most famous example of such. …d. While the SCOTUS has ruled that the confederacy was never a nation, just a part of the US under rebellion, I don’t believe the confederate solders were ever classified as civilians, but members of the army and navy, usually of a state. So I don’t think you can make the case that the union solders shot at civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/40 "2020-06-02T16:44:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If this is about the board’s mortal terror of legal action, then at least that’s a coherent explanation. That seems incredibly remote, but that’s much more reasonable and coherent than the suggestion that there’s any possible whiff of illegality in urging that soldiers not shoot unarmed civilians. If this board shuts down discussion of unlawful orders to the military to shoot unarmed civilians because of fear of legal action, the board doesn’t deserve to exist. This is utter and shameful cowardice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918.md?page=3)