# "Please reach out to military members" thread wrongly closed **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 2, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918 "2020-06-02T11:59:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/61 "2020-06-02T19:26:00Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > It’s not like it hasn’t happened before. The shooting of unarmed civilians, i mean. > > [Kent State Shootings](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/national-guard-kills-four-at-kent-state) > > None of the members of the Ohio National Guard who fired on the protesters were ever prosecuted. > > So … was it an unlawful order? Apparently not. > > The posting does sound like a “call to action” to me. I also agree with Jonathan Chance that if it had been worded differently where it didn’t sound so much as that call, it would have been easier to let it stay. > > I would think if you want to discuss this further you need to craft the discussion in such a way so that it IS a discussion about the issue and not a “you should go do this.” Can you do that? Open a new thread, restate the question, and go from there? > > Jenny > your humble TubaDiva > Administrator This post is surreal. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/62 "2020-06-02T19:36:48Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > None of the members of the Ohio National Guard who fired on the protesters were ever prosecuted. Neither were most of the soldiers at My Lai. And only one was ever convicted. So what? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/63 "2020-06-02T19:42:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Trump himself isn’t going to take us down, no, but it doesn’t take Trump, all it takes is one person on the right who has the wherewithal to file a legal motion. I do not know that the wisest course of action is to give them an excuse. Are you seriously suggesting that we should never discuss anything on this board – or, presumably, anywhere else on the net – which might cause any one person “on the right” to file an entirely unjustified legal motion? That’s absurd. Insisting that it be clarified that what’s being encouraged is to disobey an illegal order would be reasonable. Discussing whether there is some circumstance in which firing on unarmed civilians would not be an illegal order would be reasonable. Forbidding everybody from pointing out that illegal orders should not be obeyed does not strike me as a reasonable stance. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/64 "2020-06-02T19:46:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Neither were most of the soldiers at My Lai. And only one was ever convicted. > So what? It seems unlikely that Tuba Diva believes that crimes are not crimes unless they are prosecuted, so I too am missing her point. ---
**Author:** ![faync1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@faync1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/faync1)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/65 "2020-06-02T19:54:57Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > [Kent State Shootings](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/national-guard-kills-four-at-kent-state) > > None of the members of the Ohio National Guard who fired on the protesters were ever prosecuted. > > Jenny > your humble TubaDiva > Administrator According to your cite, they were prosecuted. The article says the charges were dismissed by a federal judge. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/66 "2020-06-02T19:57:10Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > None of the members of the Ohio National Guard who fired on the protesters were ever prosecuted. Do you believe that it would have been a violation of federal law to have requested that those soldiers NOT fire at the unarmed college students? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/67 "2020-06-02T19:58:05Z")
That’s an astonishing historical reference, Tubadiva. I don’t even know how to respond. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/68 "2020-06-02T20:01:51Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that we should never discuss anything on this board – or, presumably, anywhere else on the net – which might cause any one person “on the right” to file an entirely unjustified legal motion? No, that would not be my suggestion. > [@](#): > > That’s absurd. Agreed. > [@](#): > > Insisting that it be clarified that what’s being encouraged is to disobey an illegal order would be reasonable. Or insisting that it be a discussion about what a soldier’s responsibilities are, ethically and morally, and how to approach that conversation with a family member, friend, or acquaintance in the military would be reasonable. > [@](#): > > Discussing whether there is some circumstance in which firing on unarmed civilians would not be an illegal order would be reasonable. Forbidding everybody from pointing out that illegal orders should not be obeyed does not strike me as a reasonable stance. I agree, however, it was not a discussion about when and where you can get away with firing on unarmed civilians, it was a call to action to tell military members how to interpret their orders. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/69 "2020-06-02T20:28:28Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Good luck to the admins and moderators explaining it to a judge. I know that people around here like to invoke the boogeyman of lawsuits as an excuse to be quick on the censorship trigger, but that’s actually unfounded. According to [section 230 of the Communications Decency Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act), online internet forums are mostly immune to civil and criminal liability for what its users post. If it were otherwise, Twitter and Facebook would have already been sued out of existence. I have no problem with SDMB taking the position that “we will not encourage or facilitate lawbreaking.” Fine. Hold firm to a principle of civic responsibility. Don’t hide behind “oh noes we might get sued.” ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/70 "2020-06-02T20:31:48Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > It’s not like it hasn’t happened before. The shooting of unarmed civilians, i mean. > > [Kent State Shootings](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/national-guard-kills-four-at-kent-state) > > None of the members of the Ohio National Guard who fired on the protesters were ever prosecuted. > > So … was it an unlawful order? Apparently not. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/71 "2020-06-02T21:13:28Z")
My god, Tuba. You are playing devil’s advocate on the military shooting unarmed civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/72 "2020-06-02T21:17:07Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I know that people around here like to invoke the boogeyman of lawsuits as an excuse to be quick on the censorship trigger, but that’s actually unfounded. According to [section 230 of the Communications Decency Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act), online internet forums are mostly immune to civil and criminal liability for what its users post. If it were otherwise, Twitter and Facebook would have already been sued out of existence. > > I have no problem with SDMB taking the position that “we will not encourage or facilitate lawbreaking.” Fine. Hold firm to a principle of civic responsibility. Don’t hide behind “oh noes we might get sued.” On Thursday President Trump issued [executive order 13925](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/06/02/2020-12030/preventing-online-censorship) which basically directs his cabinet to beg the FCC to reinterpret that particular section much more harshly. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/73 "2020-06-02T21:25:44Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Well, clearly I disagree. And continue to do so. > > I looked it up under the mutiny guidelines in the UCMJ this morning. > > Yes, following unlawful orders is legal. But Russian heel’s OP makes an assumption that the orders would be illegal and that’s not a jump I’m willing to make in Great Debates or Politics & Elections. > > If the phrasing had been ‘if those orders are unlawful you don’t need to follow them’ or something similar I’d have looked at it. But Russian heel’s OP makes a hugely and unwarranted leap in logic in assuming they would be. There are many examples of soldiers - US and otherwise - shooting on civilians in rebellion or other forms of civil disorder. The Civil War is merely the most famous example of such. There are others. > > Remember, people, in these trying times as my city of Charleston begins to put itself base together, that not everything Trump does may be illegal regardless of your opinion of the man. I hate him and work for his defeat everyday I’m here on Earth and I hope you do, as well. > > But my responsibility to the board requires me to follow the rules. That OK was clean if - and only if - you accept that Russian Heel’s proposition that firing on civilians is a war crime and would be held illegal. I’m not willing to make that assumption at the risk of the board. Generals have stated that they would refuse to follow unlawful orders. It may be reasonable to debate what is and is not an unlawful order but agreed with others here. The thread should be re-opened. Question. Tangentially connected. Is any discussion that supports civil disobedience as a protest tactic verboten here? By definition those would be illegal acts. What would cross the fuzzy line? And no fuzzy is not a feature here. Call to action seems pretty meaningless. “Vote!” could be disallowed under that guidance. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/74 "2020-06-02T22:19:18Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > On Thursday President Trump issued [executive order 13925](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/06/02/2020-12030/preventing-online-censorship) which basically directs his cabinet to beg the FCC to reinterpret that particular section much more harshly. _shrug_ He can beg. The FCC can reinterpret. It still has to pass judicial muster, and the legal theory is pathetically weak. Point being, for decades the SDMB has been using legal liability as an excuse for censorship even though section 230 clearly states they aren’t liable for what its users post. All mods, junior and official, should avoid hiding their censorship behind the fig leaf of “we don’t want to get sued”. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/75 "2020-06-02T22:22:11Z")
For the record I encourage the closing under “no calls to action”. That’s a good policy because a call to action by one board just invites reciprocal calls to action from nutballs on other boards. We’re fully stocked on nutballs as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/76 "2020-06-02T22:30:18Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > _shrug_ He can beg. The FCC can reinterpret. It still has to pass judicial muster, and the legal theory is pathetically weak. > > Point being, for decades the SDMB has been using legal liability as an excuse for censorship even though section 230 clearly states they aren’t liable for what its users post. All mods, junior and official, should avoid hiding their censorship behind the fig leaf of “we don’t want to get sued”. If you say so, I haven’t been here long enough to notice. I also think the post should have been closed as a call to action. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/77 "2020-06-02T22:34:27Z")
Just wanted to say that even though I was recently suspended for being a jerk, I don’t agree that the military should be allowed to shoot unarmed civilians. Unlike the staff here. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/78 "2020-06-02T22:36:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Just wanted to say that even though I was suspended for being a jerk, I don’t agree that the military should be allowed to shoot unarmed civilians. Unlike the staff here. There are a couple of ways to parse that. I assume that you don’t think that the staff should be able to shoot unarmed civilians. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/79 "2020-06-02T22:43:14Z")
Well, that would depend on the “stand your ground” rules in their particular jurisdiction. But seriously, I am occasionally shocked by how amoral the mods can be here. Some honestly think having a rule book they follow is the same as a moral code. No, Jonathan. Politeness is not the highest calling. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/80 "2020-06-02T23:17:36Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Generals have stated that they would refuse to follow unlawful orders. … [The bit I was recalling](https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/06/politics/us-military-chain-of-command-trump-orders/index.html) - > [@](#): > > Speaking publicly on the issue last November, Gen. John Hyten, top US nuclear commander, said he would push back against an order from Trump for a nuclear strike if it were “illegal.” > “I provide advice to the President,” Hyten said. “He’ll tell me what to do, and if it’s illegal, guess what’s going to happen? I’m gonna say, ‘Mr. President, that’s illegal.’ Guess what he’s going to do? He’s going to say, ‘What would be legal?’ And we’ll come up with options of a mix of capabilities to respond to whatever the situation is, and that’s the way it works. It’s not that complicated.” > While the President retains that authority, Hyten publicly emphasized that the US military always has the obligation to follow only legal orders, including those entailing the launch of nuclear weapons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918.md?page=5)