# Please recommend dystopian novels. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 5, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451 "2009-08-05T19:00:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/41 "2009-08-06T16:09:35Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > \…ugly people (I keed, I keed)…\ Actually, I seem to remember Linda (John’s mother) as having gained a lot of weight and becoming fairly homely (not that I’m suggesting both go hand-in-hand!). ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/42 "2009-08-07T08:51:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not by definition, no. It depends on how the government uses that power. I don’t recall it being used in a coercive or destructive manner in the novel, but again, it’s been more than 10 years since I’ve read it, and I may not be remembering it correctly. Here’s an excerpt from the synopsis on Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Once arrested and convicted, Reich is sentenced to the dreaded Demolition—the stripping away of his memories and the upper layers of his personality, emptying his mind for re-education. This 24th century society uses psychological demolition because it recognises the social value of strong personalities able to successfully defy the law, seeking the salvaging of positive traits in ridding the person of the evil consciousness of the criminal. Re-education, ridding the person of his ‘evil consciousness’ (evil, of course, as defined by the authorities). These are about as dystopian as it gets. I’d also arrgue that any society, no matter what its aims, in which a person’s private thoughts are not their own is dystopian by virtue of that fact alone. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/43 "2009-08-07T20:46:06Z")
The Terra of Poul Anderson’s Dominic Flandry series (novels: _Ensign Flandry, A Circus of Hells, The Rebel Worlds, A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows, and A Stone in Heaven_; short story collections: \*Flandry of Terra \*and _Agent of the Terran Empire)_ is a dystopia. And Unan Bator of the novella “A Plague of Masters” is even worse than the Terran Empire. Many other Anderson novels also feature dystopias. C.M. Kornbluth’s novel \*The Syndic \*displays some pretty nasty governments, though the Syndic is an organization of high morale. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/44 "2009-08-07T23:34:02Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > Actually, I seem to remember Linda (John’s mother) as having gained a lot of weight and becoming fairly homely (not that I’m suggesting both go hand-in-hand!). Oh, I know, I just said I was kidding because I didn’t want to imply that ugly people=no such thing as paradise. Were all the lower caste people pretty in BNW, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/45 "2009-08-07T23:45:20Z")
_City_ by Clifford D. Simak. It’s about a world in which genetically engineered dogs inerit the earth from people. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/46 "2009-08-08T00:17:17Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Here’s an excerpt from the synopsis on Wikipedia: > > Re-education, ridding the person of his ‘evil consciousness’ (evil, of course, as defined by the authorities). These are about as dystopian as it gets. I’d also arrgue that any society, no matter what its aims, in which a person’s private thoughts are not their own is dystopian by virtue of that fact alone. It’s not a case of a dictatorship adjusting the personality of dissidents. It’s the penalty for murder. How does demolition compare to the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/47 "2009-08-08T00:19:23Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Re-education, ridding the person of his ‘evil consciousness’ (evil, of course, as defined by the authorities). These are about as dystopian as it gets. I’d also argue that any society, no matter what its aims, in which a person’s private thoughts are not their own is dystopian by virtue of that fact alone. Sounds like a step up from strapping them to a gurney and injecting them with poison, and a lot more practical than locking him up in a hole in the ground for the rest of his life. Let’s also keep in mind that the protagonist in _The Demolished Man_ is straight up crazy. His eventual fate doesn’t strike me as any morally worse than court ordered psychiatric care, except that it’s got a much higher success rate than the methods we have today. I’m also curious about your contention that the existence of mind readers is by itself reason enough to consider a society as a dystopia. If tomorrow, genuine telepaths began appearing, how should society react to that in a way that doesn’t lead to an oppressive, dystopian society? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/48 "2009-08-08T01:36:33Z")
Don’t be afraid of the label “children’s story” and check out **House of Stairs**. Although the dystopian part only becomes apparent at the end, where:It turns out the children were being used as guinea pigs in a government experiment in behavioral conditioning ---
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/49 "2009-08-08T01:39:38Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and Minority Report by Phillip K. Dick. > Not at all like the movies based upon them. Pretty much anything by PKD. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/50 "2009-08-08T02:37:23Z")
_Half Past Human_ by T.J. Bass. It’s weird and quirky, but it’s definitely a dystopia. The sequel is _The Godwhale_ but really they can be read either first, being stand alone novels. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/51 "2009-08-08T02:45:18Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Don’t be afraid of the label “children’s story” and check out **House of Stairs**. House of Stairs! I remember reading that as a kid. In fact, several years ago, I started a thread inquiring if anybody else remembered it. I don’t think anybody replied. For other suggestions, how about “the Futurological Convention” by Stanislaw Lem? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/52 "2009-08-08T02:47:05Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Do not ignore the movie. The movie was excellent. I read the book and I definitely think the movie is _better_ than the book. For me, it’s everything that a good movie should be. It has amazing sets and cinematography. It has excellent acting (Will Patton steals the show; many great character actors including Giovanni Ribisi are also in the cast, as well as a cameo by Tom Petty; Kevin Costner fits the role of the protagonist well.) The plot is interesting. The dialog is clever. It has a good message. The only possible flaw is its length, but that’s not a flaw in my own opinion because I would happily watch six hours of Postman movie. > > The “Holnist” Army and General Bethlehem, brought to life in that film by Will Patton’s masterful acting, are way more compelling as antagonists than the vague enemies in the novel. I’m so glad you mentioned this; I was honestly thinking I was about the only person on the planet who liked _The Postman_ film, for pretty much exactly the same reasons you did. But I also love the book (it’s one of my favourites), as it has a great story. It’s also less “flag-wavy” than the movie, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/53 "2009-08-08T03:22:50Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > By the way, everyone, thank you for your recommendations. So far I’m very interested in reading _We_ and _Never Let Me Go_. I hope you have more fun with Never Let Me Go than I did. I gave up a few chapters in when absolutely nothing had happened up until that point. On the other hand, I love Oryx and Crake and Jennifer Government. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/54 "2009-08-08T05:09:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’m so glad you mentioned this; I was honestly thinking I was about the only person on the planet who liked _The Postman_ film, for pretty much exactly the same reasons you did. But I also love the book (it’s one of my favourites), as it has a great story. It’s also less “flag-wavy” than the movie, FWIW. If we can find a third person who liked it, we can start a fan club. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/55 "2009-08-08T05:21:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m also curious about your contention that the existence of mind readers is by itself reason enough to consider a society as a dystopia. If tomorrow, genuine telepaths began appearing, how should society react to that in a way that doesn’t lead to an oppressive, dystopian society? I made no such contention. It would not be the appearance of telepathists that would be alarming, it would be their employment as an arm of the state. Do you really see no problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/56 "2009-08-08T06:13:21Z")
I see all sorts of _potential_ problems with that. But any tool used by the state can be abused. It doesn’t follow that it necessarily will be abused. There’s nothing in _The Demolished Man_ to suggest that the government is oppressive or dictatorial. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/57 "2009-08-09T00:48:10Z")
_Fatherland_ by Robert Harris is an alternative-history book, set in 1964. Nazi Germany has conquered Europe and severely worn down the Soviet Union, and is engaged in a cold war with the U.S. Hitler is about to have his first summit meeting in Berlin with President Joseph Kennedy when an SS criminal investigator begins looking into the mysterious deaths of senior Nazi Party officials. A very good, very chilling dystopian novel. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/58 "2009-08-09T01:05:39Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’ve always loved Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood. She also wrote The Handmaid’s Tale which is another dystopian novel and very good too. I really like Handmaid’s Tale, but Oryx and Crake felt like the good ideas of other writers, poorly recycled by someone who thought obnoxious videos on the Internet were more significant than they really are. William Gibson strenuously denies that _Neuromancer_ is a dystopic novel: rather, he claims that it represents how the majority of the world’s population lives, and that we westerners live in a fantasy-utopia on their backs, more or less. Other recommendations: -Stephen King’s novella “The Long Walk” has stuck with me ever since I read it in high school. A fascistic state with a hugely popular sport: youth begin a long walk. If you drop below three miles (or so) an hour more than three times within a given time period, you’re shot in the head. The last youth alive wins the race. -Jeffrey Ford’s _The Physiognomy_ is a tremendously weird dystopic novel with debts to _Metropolis_ and _Alice in Wonderland_ and _1984_. It’s very good, but very grim and weird. -I’m not quite sure if it qualifies, but I think it does: Cormac McCarthy’s _The Road_ is the best post-apocalyptic novel I’ve ever read (and the only one where the apocalypse seemed like a real apocalypse, i.e., not something that gets any better). When the main characters rarely interact with anyone who isn’t a cannibal, that’s not a good society they’re in. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/59 "2009-08-09T01:58:08Z")
_False Dawn_ by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451/60 "2009-08-09T04:39:26Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > While we’re at it, _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ isn’t dystopian either; it’s post-apocalyptic. Whatever it is, there is – believe it or not – a [sequel!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Leibowitz_and_the_Wild_Horse_Woman) Written 38 years after the original! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-recommend-dystopian-novels/505451.md?page=4)