# Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306 "2023-12-29T10:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/181 "2023-12-30T18:56:25Z")
Gender is a long-standing category in languages, and it’s often much more complicated than just male and female: > **[Grammatical gender](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender)** > > In linguistics, a grammatical gender system is a specific form of a noun class system, where nouns are assigned to gender categories that are often not related to the real-world qualities of the entities denoted by those nouns. In languages with grammatical gender, most or all nouns inherently carry one value of the grammatical category called gender; the values present in a given language (of which there are usually two or three) are called the genders of that language. > Whereas some authors use... ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/182 "2023-12-30T19:23:23Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > In my defense, that’s some disturbing product being shilled in the Garfield ad. I find Garfield usually pretty disturbing on its own. (The “its” is referring to the strip, not the very-uncatlike-cat.) > [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Taking up space just to announce “Guest” or “Charter Member” really doesn’t do anything for the discussion in any particular thread. Especially since most very long term posters show up as “Guest”. On this board, at least, that doesn’t tell you anything at all about the poster. > [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > If someone uses “he”, I’ll be amused, and might react, but probably wouldn’t flag it. I certainly wouldn’t flag somebody for using male pronouns for me; I just drop a comment into the thread. At least, unless they appeared to be deliberately persisting in it – but that’s never happened here; I generally just get something along the lines of a quick ‘whoops, sorry’ and if they do it again it’s after a gap of time long enough that we’ve probably both forgotten about the prior incident (I don’t know whether I’ve had it happen more than once with the same poster; I’m not keeping track.) > [@Acsenray](#): > > I’ll return to posting when it’s definitively established that gender-free pronouns are acceptable in all cases regardless of context. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think you can use gender-free pronouns in every case except where another poster has specifically asked you to use something else. (And that ask was recent enough or frequent enough that you ought to be aware of their request.) > > I’m going to highlight this as a moderator comment because I am speaking for official sdmb policy here. Will that do? It would be nice to have you back. And I think that, for the foreseeable future, that’s as close as you’re going to get. > [@Chronos](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > there are lots of references to “a child”, and that child is referred to as she in the first paragraph, then he in the second, then back to she in the third, and so on. > > OK, yeah, that would be confusing. Whatever pronoun you’re using for a person, you should be consistent. Thankfully I haven’t encountered that one. I have. I can see what they’re doing, and I think it’s better than consistently using the generic male; but I’d rather they use “they”, if only because the repeated switching seems to me to actively call attention to the gender of the people referred to, which rather contradicts the intended sense of ‘person could be any gender’. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/183 "2023-12-30T19:31:59Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I think you can use gender-free pronouns in every case except where another poster has specifically asked you to use something else. (And that ask was recent enough or frequent enough that you ought to be aware of their request.) > > > > I’m going to highlight this as a moderator comment because I am speaking for official sdmb policy here. > > Will that do? > > It would be nice to have you back. And I think that, for the foreseeable future, that’s as close as you’re going to get. Sorry, that’s not good enough for me. I am seeking a standard in which gender-free language is always acceptable, without exception, and that no one can obligate someone else to employ gendered language. To me, such a rule defeats the purpose of gender-free language. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/184 "2023-12-30T19:33:03Z")
Sorry. I enjoy your posting, but i don’t think we can promise that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/185 "2023-12-30T19:36:23Z")
Then that’s the end of the story. I might read but I won’t post. ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/186 "2023-12-30T19:43:36Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I assume he was making a joke about that being a Warhammer ork and Warhammer being a male dominated hobby. > > That and it’s a skull. The discussion of your avatar reminds me of an exchange my daughter heard in her science classroom between a middle-school boy and girl discussing potential Halloween costumes. The boy said, “Skeletons are for _girls_!” So that’s what I’m going to think of _every single time_ I see your avatar from now on. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/187 "2023-12-30T19:46:12Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > The discussion of your avatar reminds me of an exchange my daughter heard in her science classroom between a middle-school boy and girl discussing potential Halloween costumes. The boy said, “Skeletons are for _girls_!” My oldest is a toddler and this last Halloween she became obsessed with skeletons (and by extension skeleton dinos, so we had some fun museum trips!), so she would agree wholeheartedly. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/188 "2023-12-30T19:49:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sorry, that’s not good enough for me. I am seeking a standard in which gender-free language is always acceptable, without exception, and that no one can obligate someone else to employ gendered language. FWIW IMHO such would be a very jerkish standard. I believe that if I am aware of a poster having preferred pronoun I should, within reason, attempt to respect it. Intentionally using “they” referencing @colinfred, knowing and remembering that _he_ objects to such, would IMHO, be being a jerk. Of course I am likely to forget, goldfish that I am, and may fall into my new normative of “they”, and I’d hope no offense would be taken. But persisting after a reminder? Rude. I’d even try to remember your somewhat unique preferences, but would be very unlikely to succeed, maybe just repeating your whole name lots … I’d ask why it is important to you to have others’s preferences disrespected, but you aren’t posting anymore… ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/189 "2023-12-30T19:58:57Z")
We can’t have gender _free_ language. I don’t think it’s possible. There are times when it’s necessary to understand the situation to know what chromosomes you have or now, how you may identify. That expectation goes too far. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/190 "2023-12-30T20:02:05Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > We can’t have gender _free_ language. I don’t think it’s possible. Sure it is: > **[Genderless language](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderless_language)** > > A genderless language is a natural or constructed language that has no distinctions of grammatical gender—that is, no categories requiring morphological agreement for gender between nouns and associated pronouns, adjectives, articles, or verbs. > The notion of a "genderless language" is distinct from that of gender-neutral language, which is neutral with regard to natural gender. A discourse in a genderless language need not be gender-neutral (although genderless languages exclude many possibiliti... > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > There are times when it’s necessary to understand the situation to know what chromosomes you have or now, how you may identify. We aren’t talking about language with no words for gender or sex, we are talking about grammatical gender (gendered pronouns, variants of nouns and adjectives, etc) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/191 "2023-12-30T20:04:11Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > We can’t have gender _free_ language. I don’t think it’s possible. There is no gender in spoken Mandarin Chinese. There are many languages without genders at all. Here are some of them. Note that it works slightly differently in every language: > **[Gender neutrality in genderless languages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages)** > > A genderless language is a natural or constructed language that has no distinctions of grammatical gender—that is, no categories requiring morphological agreement between nouns and associated pronouns, adjectives, articles, or verbs. > The notion of a genderless language is distinct from that of gender neutrality or gender-neutral language, which is wording that does not presuppose a particular natural gender. A discourse in a grammatically genderless language is not necessarily gender-neutral,... ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/192 "2023-12-30T20:04:22Z")
I understand that. But you can’t expect it to be the norm. In writing, speaking or thinking. It’s not possible. Not in this lifetime. I live here. I post on a board here. I’m not liable to be posting, or thinking in Mandarin Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/193 "2023-12-30T20:05:26Z")
In this lifetime there are already languages where it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/194 "2023-12-30T20:08:21Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And the rule about misgendering My position is that using gender-free pronouns is by definition not “misgendering.” It is simply not making any reference to gender at all. Gender-free third person pronouns should be treated no differently than gender free pronouns “I” or “thou” or “you.” Gender simply doesn’t enter into it. It’s like saying I’m mid-identifying your ethnicity if I refer to you as “human” or “a person.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/195 "2023-12-30T20:08:28Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I understand that. But you can’t expect it to be the norm. In writing, speaking or thinking. It’s not possible It’s true for billions of people, and English is already 90% gender neutral - only pronouns are gendered, basically. Imagine how much harder it would be for speakers of a language that genders objects and doesn’t even _have_ a neuter word? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/196 "2023-12-30T20:08:34Z")
This board does not compute in other languages from its origin. You can translate it anywhere. How do they fill in when some poster says _she, her, him, fae, whichever_? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/197 "2023-12-30T20:09:49Z")
What? I find that number hard to believe. Nuts and bolts and screws are even gendered ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/198 "2023-12-30T20:17:21Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > You can translate it anywhere. How do they fill in when some poster says _she, her, him, fae, whichever_? I don’t know what you are asking here? > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > What? I find that number hard to believe. Which number? Between most forms of Chinese, Persian, and Tagalog, we easily have millions of people. Or if you mean the 90% figure - many (most Indo-European ones at least?) languages give grammatical gender to all objects. In English, you are “she”, I am “he”, and a table is an “it”. In many, many languages, that’s not the case. A table is a “he”, a chair is a “he”, a door is a “she”, etc. In Hebrew, the suffix that makes a word plural differs based on whether the word is male (im) or female (ut); in English the suffix is always the same (s). From the earlier linked wiki page: > [@](#): > > ### English[edit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages&action=edit§ion=5) > > Main article: [Gender neutrality in English](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_English) > > [English](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) lacks grammatical gender,[[7]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages#cite_note-7)[[8]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages#cite_note-8)[[9]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages#cite_note-9) but can be considered to have a _pronominal gender system_ with semantic gender represented in the [pronouns](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoun). This system of gender is quite minimal compared to languages with grammatical gender.[[10]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages#cite_note-audring-10) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/199 "2023-12-30T20:18:40Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Nuts and bolts and screws are even gendered Describing something like a power cord as “male” and “female” does not give them grammatical gender; a male extension cord is still an “it” for example. It’s just a shorthand that no one over the age of 12 is likely to screw up. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/200 "2023-12-30T20:21:57Z")
We don’t speak those languages here. Sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=11)