# Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306 "2023-12-29T10:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/201 "2023-12-30T20:23:00Z")
Hey. I understand exactly what a female receptacle is. And so do you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/202 "2023-12-30T20:24:27Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Hey. I understand exactly what a female receptacle is. And so do you That’s what I just said: > [@Babale](#): > > It’s just a shorthand that no one over the age of 12 is likely to screw up. But what does that have to do with _grammatical gender_, the topic under discussion? > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > We don’t speak those languages here Sure, but it shows that the idea that a genderless language is impossible is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/203 "2023-12-30T20:25:45Z")
This whole thing just goes too far. It needs to stop. There’s no way in the short life expectations I have left to figure it out. And I assume a large number of other posters feel the same. We’re mostly not young people anymore. ETA if any one thinks this will make the world better they are mistaken. It only confuses. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/204 "2023-12-30T20:44:43Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That said, you also did flat out tell me once that you were okay with using “he” or “she” if someone specifically asked you to, due to gender dysphoria. So the above situation shouldn’t even come up. I don’t recall what I said before, but people do change. Perhaps my position has evolved since we discussed it. I won’t refer to someone with masculine/femininewords who doesn’t identify with that gender. But I have since decided it’s even better solution, as I do when I speak Bengali, to eliminate “he” and “she” altogether, so gender needn’t become an issue when it isn’t needed. I would also suggest coming up with new terms for “male” and “female” mechanical tools and objects. They don’t need to be gendered, especially in a world in which we are starting to recognise that gender isn’t always tied to anatomical mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/205 "2023-12-30T20:52:27Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > This whole thing just goes too far. It needs to stop. There’s no way in the short life expectations I have left to figure it out. I don’t believe society is better for tying itself in knots to adapt to you and your professed inability to learn new things. Consider decentering yourself in this discussion. Focus less on your own concerns and listen more to the concerns of others. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/206 "2023-12-30T20:52:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > My position is that using gender-free pronouns is by definition not “misgendering.” It is simply not making any reference to gender at all. I find it offensive. I have lived in this world as a woman for almost 41 years now, how I have been treated has many times been a result of my gender, and you want to strip me of a very important part of my identity. In many respects, you want me to strip me of my survivorship. I am not a they/them or any sort of gender neutral entity. I am a woman. And it you refer to me as “they” when you damned well know I am a woman, you are misgendering me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/207 "2023-12-30T20:56:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > But I have since decided it’s even better solution, as I do when I speak Bengali, to eliminate “he” and “she” altogether, so gender needn’t become an issue when it isn’t needed. I also suggest you’re putting your own preferences far too much in the middle of the discussion, and could stand to listen more to what other folks want. Being a human is hard as hell. No reason we should make it even harder on one another. If someone tells you how they want to be referred to, just do it. It’s precious little difficulty for you, and can be really important to them. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/208 "2023-12-30T21:03:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Being a human is hard as hell. No reason we should make it even harder on one another. If someone tells you how they want to be referred to, just do it. It’s precious little difficulty for you, and can be really important to them. As pointed out above, billions of people live with language that has no gendered pronoun, and all English speakers live with no gendered first person singular, second person singular, and plural pronouns. Yet, this has zero bearing on how their gender affects their roles in society or how well or badly society treats them based on gender norms. This basically proves that pronouns are not the problem facing society when it comes to gender, in the same way that wearing pants is not the issue. If one can say “I” without stripping some self of one’s gender identity, it can say “uuou” without stripping someone else of gender identity, then that basically proves that eliminating ”he” and “she” from speech does nothing to a person’s gender identity, or life experience, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/209 "2023-12-30T21:05:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > As pointed out above, billions of people live with language that has no gendered pronoun, and all English speakers live with no gendered first person singular, second person singular, and plural pronouns. Completely irrelevant to **what individual people are telling you they want**. You’re not going to WELL ACTUALLY BILLIONS OF PEOPLE someone out of their own professed desires. It’s not how humans work. Either you care about what people tell you they want to be called, or you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/210 "2023-12-30T21:19:09Z")
They have a right to ask not to be mis-gendered. I don’t see that they have a right to demand to be gendered when gender is not at issue, any more than they have a right to be referred to by ethnicity when ethnicity is not at issue. “I identify as an American. I demand you not refer to me as a person, because you are mis-identifying me.” I see it as similar to when “cis-“ started becoming commonly used. People even some on this board demanded that “cis-“ deprived them of their gender identity. But that’s clearly not true. They just had to get used to it. And we as a group don’t entertain that demand. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/211 "2023-12-30T21:19:38Z")
I really don’t care how pronouns are handled in other languages, because that’s not my culture, it’s not what’s woven into my cultural identity or my deeply engrained sense of self. The structure of language has a profound impact on how people perceive themselves and even how they express their cultural values. So it probably wouldn’t matter to a culture whose language doesn’t use gendered pronouns. But that’s not the language we’re using right now. We’re using a language in which gendered pronouns definitely matter, which is fairly evident by the large number of trans people who clearly have a preference, as well as the number of bigots who think they need to police who gets to be called what. Simple rule. Just call people what they want to be called. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/212 "2023-12-30T21:19:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t see that they have a right to demand to be gendered when gender is not at issue, any more than they have a right to be referred to by ethnicity when ethnicity is not at issue. Cool. As I said, you either care about what people want or you don’t. By phrasing it as a right that they don’t have, you answer the question of whether you care. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/213 "2023-12-30T21:22:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This basically proves that pronouns are not the problem facing society when it comes to gender, in the same way that wearing pants is not the issue. That’s true. And I’d happily live with gender-free pronouns. The problem is that English doesn’t really have gender-free pronouns. The best it can offer is gender-neutral pronouns. And much as I’d love to be able to change that, you and i can’t do it single-handedly. We can work towards that goal, but we can’t make everyone else accept that meaning. Basically, i see pronouns right now as an extension of names. It’s generally polite to address people as they prefer, even if that’s not a form of address you like. (Fyi, the next time i felt the need to state my honorific, I’m totally going with Mx. But i pretty much never use honorifics these days, so perhaps it won’t come up.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/214 "2023-12-30T21:23:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cool. As I said, you either care about what people want or you don’t. By phrasing it as a right that they don’t have, you answer the question of whether you care. Would you stop referring to a someone as a person or a human or some other non-ethnic term because of such a preference? I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/215 "2023-12-30T21:24:42Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And much as I’d love to be able to change that, you and i can’t do it single-handedly. Well, the first step is to let individuals start doing it unhindered. The same way we allowed individuals to start using “cis-“ unhindered regardless of what some cis-persons said they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/216 "2023-12-30T21:25:39Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > My position is that using gender-free pronouns is by definition not “misgendering.” It is simply not making any reference to gender at all. > > I find it offensive. I have lived in this world as a woman for almost 41 years now, how I have been treated has many times been a result of my gender, and you want to strip me of a very important part of my identity. In many respects, you want me to strip me of my survivorship. I am not a they/them or any sort of gender neutral entity. I am a woman. And it you refer to me as “they” when you damned well know I am a woman, you are misgendering me. I’m inclined to agree. I don’t personally feel that way (as a male) but it seems more natural and less artificially contrived than striving to fundamentally reform the English language while in the process depriving many people of a valued part of their identity. Though personally I couldn’t care less what pronoun is used to refer to me. In fact, you can drop the pronouns entirely and just use “that noble dog” and I’m fine with it. 😉 Fortunately, over time I’ve become aware of the gender of many of our most frequent posters so I can comfortably use “he” or “she” in many cases. If someone referred to me as “she” I would hardly take offense, but I’d find it incongruous and discordant in the same way as I find egregious grammatical errors to be jarring (no more and no less) and would correct the poster’s misconception. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/217 "2023-12-30T21:26:09Z")
I am not going to deal in hypotheticals. If a person asks me to refer to them in a particular way, my strong inclination is to do so, absent very good reasons to the contrary. Abstract notions of what they have a right to ask for do not constitute strong reasons. They constitute only a reason to make life harder on other people. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/218 "2023-12-30T21:28:23Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > In fact, you can drop the pronouns entirely and just use “that noble dog” and I’m fine with it. 😉 I’ll try to remember that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/219 "2023-12-30T21:28:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I am not going to deal in hypotheticals It doesn’t have to be hypothetical. I offered the example of “cis-.” What do you say to a person who objects to being referred to as “cis”? Or objects to anyone being referred to as “cis-“? That’s a real-life example. Did you eliminate “cis-“ from your vocabulary because people told you they wanted you to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/220 "2023-12-30T21:29:42Z")
Seriously? Are you seriously not clear on the difference between someone specifically asking for me to use a particular word to refer to them in particular, and someone asking for a word to be removed from my vocabulary entirely? Tell me you’re kidding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=12)