# Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306 "2023-12-29T10:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![vbob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vbob/32/4439_2.png) [@vbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vbob)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/221 "2023-12-30T21:29:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Speaking of which, does anyone remember who was supposed to be feeding the hamsters? Surely you meant ‘anythey’ … ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/222 "2023-12-30T21:36:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Seriously? Are you seriously not clear on the difference between someone specifically asking for me to use a particular word to refer to them in particular, and someone asking for a word to be removed from my vocabulary entirely? > > Tell me you’re kidding. Not kidding. I have removed certain words entirely from my vocabulary because of legitimate objections. Those are words I wouldn’t use even if someone said “I want to be referred to as N-word or F-word.” I would refuse to do that even if that’s what that person wanted and I eliminated them from my vocabulary because other people had very good reasons for wanting it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/223 "2023-12-30T21:42:49Z")
Going back to the ethnicity comment. No, i wouldn’t honor someone’s request to consistently be referred to as “a Japanese” rather than “a person”. Not unless it was somehow extremely relevant to the conversation. But ethnicity, in English, does not function like a name. Pronouns kinda do. So that feels different. I know a guy named Kelly Shortandqueer. He’s about 5’ tall and very queer. And in general, i wouldn’t refer to either of those characteristics when talking about someone. But he actually took that as his name. (At least, i assume that’s not what his parents named him at birth.) So I refer to him as Kelly Shortandqueer. Or sometimes just Kelly. I think pronouns are similar. My memory is a sieve. I don’t promise to remember anyone’s gender, let alone their pronouns. But I’ll try to use what each person prefers, just as I’ll try to spell their name right. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/224 "2023-12-30T21:46:08Z")
Well I refuse to use your Bengali words. As an English speaker I find them objectionable. So you are a _they_ to me. My choice to eliminate words from my vocabulary is just as important to me as yours are to you. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/225 "2023-12-30T21:53:58Z")
And don’t call me cis-nothing. I’m a woman. Full stop. If you gender identify as something else, you better tell me. I can’t promise to remember or care very much. But I’ll try. This is an anonymous message board. It shouldn’t be this hard to talk to each other. It goes too far. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/226 "2023-12-30T21:59:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > My memory is a sieve. I don’t promise to remember anyone’s gender, let alone their pronouns. But I’ll try to use what each person prefers, just as I’ll try to spell their name right. I really don’t expect everyone to remember. In my early days I was frequently mistaken for a man online. It didn’t particularly bother me. What bothers me is when people do know and wilfully misgender me. Not a problem I ever knew I had until @Acsenray started doing it here, but turns out it really makes me angry. I’ve always used em’s pronouns to the best of my ability despite it taking actual effort to remember, in fact I just had to Google it to get it right here. I really don’t understand how the same courtesy can’t be applied to me. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/227 "2023-12-30T22:01:33Z")
I don’t think we can truly address this until there’s a designated place to check people’s pronouns here. But, to the extent possible, people should use other people’s correct pronouns, including not calling someone “they” when that is not the person’s pronoun. (Of course it is fine to use when there’s no way to know, or “they” is being used generically). I’d like to point out what I think are some inadvertent uses of of wording here that are problematic. It’s lovely that there is clearly support and respect for trans people and inclusivity, including recognizing that not everyone is male or wants to be referred to that way. So I hope this is taken in the spirit in which it’s given. First, for many people (possibly most – certainly most trans people) referring to their pronouns as “preferred” is problematic. They are the person’s pronouns, or their correct pronouns, not their “preferred” pronouns. It’s not preference, it’s identity. It’s like referring to sexual orientation as sexual preference. For the vast majority of people, it’s not just a “preference.” I know there are some people who truly don’t care which pronouns you call them, but in that case their correct pronouns are “any of them.” Second, nonbinary people exist. Depending on the age-group you interact with, you might not know any, or, you might know lots. Either way, using “he/she constructions” is exclusive, and reinforces the gender binary. If generic singular they truly bothers you so so much, then just use plural generic they. (“If people are so bothered by it, _they_ should try being trans for a minute and see how \*they like that.”) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/228 "2023-12-30T22:07:51Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > And don’t call me cis-nothing. I’m a woman. Full stop. All right, @Acsenray, here you can see how I’d handle such a request: @Beckdawrek, in a conversation about trans identities, if I want to distinguish between the experiences of transwomen and your experience, is there a word you’d like me to use? Obviously “woman” isn’t helpful there, because transwomen are women, and there’s no distinction I can draw. I can leave you out of that conversation entirely, as long as you don’t put yourself into it. But if you want your perspective to be part of the conversation, and if you’re not a transwoman, there needs to be a word we can use to distinguish between your identity and transwomens’ identities that doesn’t imply they’re not women. “Ciswomen” is the current most common word, but I’m willing to hear your proposed alternative. @Acsenray, see how that’s done? Respect what folks want to be called unless there’s a good reason not to (e.g., marginalizing a minority group through the “defaulting” of the majority perspective). ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/229 "2023-12-30T22:16:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > In fact, you can drop the pronouns entirely and just use “that noble dog” and I’m fine with it. 😉 Is “that cute puppy” acceptable? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/230 "2023-12-30T22:18:41Z")
But if a cis person specifically asks not to get referred to as cis, it’s easy to avoid specifically calling them cis. You don’t have to stop using the term, just don’t use it specifically for people who request otherwise. Same goes for pronouns. If someone asks you not to use agender pronouns, but rather to use he/him or she/her, that’s what you should use for them specifically. I don’t believe your position on this is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/231 "2023-12-30T22:19:09Z")
How about my name? ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/232 "2023-12-30T22:26:02Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I find it offensive. I have lived in this world as a woman for almost 41 years now, how I have been treated has many times been a result of my gender, and you want to strip me of a very important part of my identity. In many respects, you want me to strip me of my survivorship. I am not a they/them or any sort of gender neutral entity. I am a woman. And it you refer to me as “they” when you damned well know I am a woman, you are misgendering me. I could not agree more. If (general) you care about people at all, you use their pronouns if you know them. Using a gender-neutral term because you don’t know the correct pronouns is OK. But as soon as you know, it’s very rude not to. That’s like pointing out someone you don’t know by saying “that woman in the corner,” being told, “her name is Mabel,” and saying, "I’m just going to call her “that woman.” Extremely rude. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > And don’t call me cis-nothing. I’m a woman. Full stop. Do you never have to distinguish between yourself and other women? Women who’ve given birth, older women, Southern women? No one is a “woman, full stop.” Trans women have been oppressed by being excluded from “women” instead of being considered a subgroup of all women. To fix that, you need something to call them, and the subgroup of women who are not them. It can’t be “women,” full stop. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/233 "2023-12-30T22:27:03Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Either way, using “he/she constructions” is exclusive, and reinforces the gender binary. Yes, I spent a fair amount of time removing he/she language from some forms we fill out every year. Mostly, i replaced pronouns with “the actuary” or “the analyst” or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/234 "2023-12-30T22:30:36Z")
Why can’t I be woman/full stop? That’s what I am. I have a 1000 identifiers. But I’m not gonna burden _any person_ with that. I was born. Determined female. Grew to girl. Now am woman. Shouldn’t be this hard people. This is all a bunch of manufacturered silliness. You are what you are. Say it or don’t. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/235 "2023-12-30T22:32:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe your position on this is reasonable. Same here. I don’t want to get too personal, but I strongly don’t want to be called “they/them.” They are not my correct pronouns. That’s not because I have any problem at all with nonbinary folks, their preferred pronouns, or anything else of the sort. I just want people to use _my_ pronouns if they know them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/236 "2023-12-30T22:33:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > @Beckdawrek, in a conversation about trans identities, if I want to distinguish between the experiences of transwomen and your experience, is there a word you’d like me to use? Obviously “woman” isn’t helpful there, because transwomen are women, and there’s no distinction I can draw. How about “non-transgender”? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/237 "2023-12-30T22:39:22Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Why can’t I be woman/full stop? Because that implies that a trans woman is not a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/238 "2023-12-30T22:40:02Z")
Baloney (Oops, does that mean Bologna is misidentified?) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/239 "2023-12-30T22:46:28Z")
> [@Seanette](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > In fact, you can drop the pronouns entirely and just use “that noble dog” and I’m fine with it. 😉 > > Is “that cute puppy” acceptable? 😉 I’m fine with whatever, but my preferred pronoun is actually “the noble and highly intelligent dog who is never wrong”. In fact, now that I think about it, I think I have a rather strong preference for that one. And it’s gender-free, too! 😉 Apologies for the semi-humourous digression, but I actually think there’s a semi-serious point lurking under the sarcasm. People who transition their sexuality are naturally highly sensitive about their new identities, and that must be respected as a matter of basic humanity. The rest of us may or may not feel strongly about our gender identities, and should be addressed in accordance with our wishes. I don’t see any of this as being either complicated or profound or deserving of great controversy. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/240 "2023-12-30T22:56:24Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Same here. I don’t want to get too personal, but I strongly don’t want to be called “they/them.” They are not my correct pronouns. Yes they are. They apply to everybody. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=13)