# Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306 "2023-12-29T10:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/241 "2023-12-30T23:01:36Z")
Who makes these rules? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/242 "2023-12-30T23:02:57Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > The boy said, “Skeletons are for _girls_!” I’d be tempted to reply, ‘So you’re saying boys are all spineless?’ > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > There are times when it’s necessary to understand the situation to know what chromosomes you have or now, how you may identify. When those times do occur, there are plenty of ways to mention one’s gender that don’t include pronouns. (And I very much doubt that most of us know what our chromosomes are. We know what our bodies look like, and we know what our minds feel like. But unless one’s had their chromosomes inspected, nobody knows what their chromosomes are. People have occasionally been surprised, and not only in this area.) ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/243 "2023-12-30T23:03:38Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I was born. Determined female. Grew to girl. Now am woman. Shouldn’t be this hard people. There’s also a word – an acronym, really, for your first two sentences, which has the benefit of being shorter and more accurate. It’s a term that is even broader than “women.” The term is AFAB. It stands for “assigned female at birth.” It accounts for the fact that some intersex conditions are not apparent at birth, and that some people who are assigned female at birth wind up being trans, and don’t identify as female. For me, AFAB is a useful term. It refers to how I was viewed at birth vs. my identity. For me, those are separate. For most women, the easier and more informative term is “cis.” Cis means identity and assigned gender at birth match. That’s all it means. I get that some people don’t like being called that. But the term, or one like it, is necessary. Think about the hypothetical most privileged person (this construct is used regularly) – The rich, straight, white man. We needed the “trans” counterpart for those constructions. So, rich, straight, cis, white man. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/244 "2023-12-30T23:03:46Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Who makes these rules? _ **They** _ do. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/245 "2023-12-30T23:04:14Z")
I think it’s pretty clear from an honest reading of this thread that no one is making these rules - this is a discussion of people’s preferences and how to best respect each other, and specifically in situations when a person’s gender or preferred pronouns are unknown. No one is asking you to take notes on what pronouns each individual person wants - these are general guidelines and best practices being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/246 "2023-12-30T23:07:57Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Think about the hypothetical most privileged person (this construct is used regularly) – The rich, straight, white man. We needed the “trans” counterpart for those constructions. So, rich, straight, cis, white man. Why not “non-trans”? ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/247 "2023-12-30T23:08:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > > > Who makes these rules? > > _ **They** _ do. Off topic, but notable. Back in the dark ages when I was learning design and prepress stuff, I made my own business card where right below my name, it said, “I’m the _they_ in ‘That’s what they say…’ “ ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/248 "2023-12-30T23:09:21Z")
This is an anonymous message board. Jeez. If(and I have been) I’m mis-gendered, I don’t give 2 shits. But, I’m not a _they_. I’m one person. I’ll use _they_ if it becomes the rules. I’ll call you she or he. If I remember. But, Do Not ask me for fae/fa-er, em/er fox/furry or any of the countless other things. Umm. Not gonna happen It’s all just too much. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/249 "2023-12-30T23:10:17Z")
If you don’t want to be called cis, that’s fine. We won’t call you cis. But the definition of cis means “assigned female at birth with a gender identity of female”. That still may or may not apply to you (if you don’t have a gender identity, then perhaps you aren’t cis). Just as someone may ask not to be called, say, “White” – that doesn’t mean that they’re not White by American cultural/racial standards (which, of course, are ridiculous and should be deconstructed, but that’s a different discussion). ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/250 "2023-12-30T23:11:13Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@InternetLegend](#): > > > > The boy said, “Skeletons are for _girls_!” > > I’d be tempted to reply, ‘So you’re saying boys are all spineless?’ Apparently, the whole class looked at him, puzzled, and he laughed when he realized what he’d said. This is now our favorite family joke, though. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/251 "2023-12-30T23:11:19Z")
I think it’s a put down. I really do. I don’t need any added lettering. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/252 "2023-12-30T23:12:25Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > But, I’m not a _they_. I don’t believe anyone in this thread has suggested you are. Why do you believe people are suggesting this? ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/253 "2023-12-30T23:12:45Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I just want people to use _my_ pronouns if they know them. > [@eburacum45](#): > > Yes they are. They apply to everybody. They apply to everyone if either, the person’s pronouns are unknown, or you are speaking generally about an undetermined person. The part of my post that you cut off says that people should use my pronouns if they know them. I also said in my previous post that, of course, the gender neutral pronouns apply for the generic or undetermined person. Are you saying it’s OK to misgender people as long as you misgender them as nonbinary? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/254 "2023-12-30T23:13:22Z")
I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/255 "2023-12-30T23:13:45Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I think it’s a put down. I really do. Google defines Cis as: > [@](#): > > short for cisgender. Google defines Cisgender as: > [@](#): > > denoting or relating to a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex registered for them at birth; not transgender. Can you tell me what part of this definition you find derogatory? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/256 "2023-12-30T23:14:44Z")
I think non-binary people use it to say you’re less than. (Remember, I’m not at all world wise about this. I just know how it feels, to me) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/257 "2023-12-30T23:15:26Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I think non-binary people use it to say you’re less than And your evidence for this claim is… ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/258 "2023-12-30T23:16:29Z")
I have none. It’s my feeling. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/259 "2023-12-30T23:17:10Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Are you saying it’s OK to misgender people as long as you misgender them as nonbinary? I’d prefer to use nongendered words wherever possible. That should be the default, and I expect English to move towards nongendered pronouns over the next few centuries. Maybe it is an idea for which the time has not yet come. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/260 "2023-12-30T23:21:50Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Why not “non-trans”? I didn’t choose the term, I only learned it. (And don’t mind its being used for me.) But: 1. Cis is shorter and easier to say. 2. “Cis” is a positive framing. “Non-trans” is a negative framing. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I think it’s a put down. I really do. > > I don’t need any added lettering. Under most circumstances, you (and I) don’t; and neither do trans women. But in the few circumstances in which it’s useful to distinguish, adding lettering for the trans women and not for the cis women others the trans women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=14)