# Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306 "2023-12-29T10:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![colinfred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colinfred/32/21338_2.png) [@colinfred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colinfred)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/41 "2023-12-29T15:09:36Z")
The use givien in that PDF is “When someone studies grammar, they…” which indeed is the generic use of singular they that has been around forever There’s a reason it didn’t say “When David studies grammar, they…” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/42 "2023-12-29T15:13:50Z")
I’ve noticed people “out in the wild” who always use singular they, and it just seems to be a normal part of how they talk. For example, Matt Parker, math comedian and YouTuber uses it so much that he doesn’t seem to notice. He did a bit where he had someone else’s voice for a bit, and there was a noticeable change in pronoun use. There is even this old hierarchy of singular they that I found online. IIRC: Level 1 is generic they. Level 2 is using they when the gender is unknown. Level 3 is using it by default, and level 4 is using it for everyone. Unfortunately I’m not finding it now. But my point is that it’s actually pretty common for singular they to become the default for a lot of people, and don’t actually sound pretentious at all once it really is normal. Like, Matt Parker sounds like that’s how he’s always said things. Same with some other Brits I watch. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/43 "2023-12-29T15:18:28Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > The use givien in that PDF is “When someone studies grammar, they…” which indeed is the generic use of singular they that has been around forever There’s a reason it didn’t say “When David studies grammar, they…” When David plays soccer, [she](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shani_David) does a great job. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/44 "2023-12-29T15:21:09Z")
> [@solost](#): > > I think someone should come up with a new singular non-gendered pronoun, similar to how ‘Ms.’ was coined back in the 60s or 70s. It’s been done. The problem is, there were several competing sets, and none of them got traction. I’m afraid we are stuck with “they”. Personally, i am hoping that “they all” will catch on, for the plural “they”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/45 "2023-12-29T15:24:01Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The problem is, there were several competing sets, and none of them got traction. I’m afraid we are stuck with “they”. Obligatory XKCD: [![](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards_2x.png) ](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards_2x.png) We have a perfectly cromulent gender neutral pronoun; it is “they”. The fact that “they” is also other words does not change this. I don’t see anyone up in arms over other words that have multiple meanings, such as “arms”. Or “over”. Or “see”. Why does “they” rile people up so much? ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/46 "2023-12-29T15:25:20Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Absolutely! And don’t get me started on those unbelievably affected and pompous folks that use the degendering slurs _you_ and _your_! Thanks. I needed a quick shot of SDMB sarcasm to shake off the cobwebs this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/47 "2023-12-29T15:26:49Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > > Absolutely! And don’t get me started on those unbelievably affected and pompous folks that use the degendering slurs _you_ and _your_! > > Thanks. I needed a quick shot of SDMB sarcasm to shake off the cobwebs this morning The only non pompous 2nd person pronouns are “youse guys” and “youse girls”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/48 "2023-12-29T15:28:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Why does “they” rile people up so much? Well, I’ve found the ambiguity about the number that “you” refers to confusing for years. When i made up my own language as a kid, i included singular, dual, and plural for every pronoun. So I’m a little sad to lose that distinction with “they”. I’m completely serious about rooting for they all. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/49 "2023-12-29T15:33:23Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Well, I’ve found the ambiguity about the number that “you” refers to confusing for years. I get that, and I understand the drawbacks of singular they. My point is that the English language is full of ambiguous words that are context dependent, and none of them inspire the same rancor that “they” does. And the singular they is not a new concept, as has been pointed out a bunch of times. So I find it more than a little suspicious that people suddenly care about grammar so much when the issue is related to trans people or to challenging the default status of maleness. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/50 "2023-12-29T15:33:32Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t see anyone up in arms over other words that have multiple meanings, such as “arms”. Or “over”. Or “see”. Why does “they” rile people up so much? The use of ‘they’ as a singular pronoun doesn’t ‘rile me up’ at all, it has simply confused me at times when used in real world situations. But I’ve adapted. And yes, words do often have multiple meanings, but ‘they’ was formerly used specifically, or at least most often, to mean a group of people. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/51 "2023-12-29T15:35:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The only non pompous 2nd person pronouns are “youse guys” and “youse girls”. No love for “y’all” (2nd person singular) and “all y’all” (2nd person plural) at all? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/52 "2023-12-29T15:35:31Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > it’s pretty much always better to use “he/she” constructs or repeat their name when unsure It’s pretty much better to not guess at what other people remember about their interactions with you or others on an anonymous message board. In the last year I’ve really tried hard to use “they/them” more often as my default pronouns for others until I’m positive of their preferred pronouns. My family goes to a particular local restaurant every week. One of our favorite servers is transgender, and presents as female. I am _TERRIBLE_ at using the wrong pronoun, and am embarrassed each time, and try hard to do better, but often fail. I liken it to being left-handed, and asked to write my name with my right hand - I can do it, I just have to concentrate at it. People don’t use pronouns as a weapon if they’re not assholes. Let’s all try to give each other some grace when mistakes happen. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/53 "2023-12-29T15:37:22Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > There’s a reason it didn’t say “When David studies grammar, they…” I’m actually more than okay with this. JFTR 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/54 "2023-12-29T15:37:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m completely serious about rooting for they all. I agree that “they all” works well to resolve complexity. > [@solost](#): > > but ‘they’ was formerly used specifically, or at least most often, to mean a group of people. I don’t think this is true. “They” as a singular pronoun when you are unsure of the gender or to avoid saying “he or she” is not new at all. There are only two things that are new: 1. Recognizing that using “he” by default all the time reinforces the status of maleness as the assumed status quo, and that this makes spaces unwelcoming to women and should be avoided (and that “they” is a more elegant way to do this than repeating “he and/or she”) 2. Increased awareness of trans people who choose to identify with the gender neutral pronoun “they” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/55 "2023-12-29T15:39:30Z")
My issue is I simply do not remember the gender of posters in most cases. There are lots of posters and, even if I have seen many of their posts and responded to them I still just do not remember most times (with a few exceptions). Since it seems fraught to get it wrong I just opt for the generic “they” and move on. Some posters (me included) put their preferred pronouns in their bio but, even then, I admit I often do not check (I should get better at checking to see if there is a preference). If the pronoun is clear in the thread then I will probably go with that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/56 "2023-12-29T15:40:42Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > it’s pretty much always better to use “he/she” constructs or repeat their name when unsure. Since this was just quoted - I _really_ disagree with this. Both using “he/she” or repeating the name is very awkward. “He/she” looks funky and repeating the name makes sentences awkward and stilted. I greatly prefer the singular “they” to either of these options. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/57 "2023-12-29T15:42:27Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > > [@colinfred](#): > > > > There’s a reason it didn’t say “When David studies grammar, they…” > > I’m actually more than okay with this. > > JFTR Yeah, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that construction. And as I pointed out, David could be a woman’s surname. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/58 "2023-12-29T15:57:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t think this is true. “They” as a singular pronoun when you are unsure of the gender or to avoid saying “he or she” is not new at all. Well, then it’s been my experience. All’s I’m saying is, I have occasionally been confused by the singular use of ‘they’ when I’ve encountered it IRL. But I have adapted, and I am respectful and supportive of people without gender preferences to be referred to as they wish. > [@Babale](#): > > “they” is a more elegant way to do this than repeating “he and/or she” What would be even _ **more** _ elegant is if there _ **was** _ a new non-gendered pronoun that became widely adopted and we didn’t have to make ‘they’ do double duty. But as puzzlegal and Randall Munroe pointed out, it’s difficult to get new words or standards to be adopted ‘in the wild’. I’ve sometimes wondered how it’s done for new words in languages that apply genders to inanimate objects, like French. ‘The Internet’ is ‘La internet’. Is there a government language department that, sometime in the late 80s - early 90s, decreed that the internet is female? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/59 "2023-12-29T16:02:53Z")
> [@solost](#): > > we didn’t have to make ‘they’ do double duty. Huh? We’ve been doing exactly that for just one century less than we’ve been using the plural _they_, > This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. > **[Singular they](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)** > > Singular they, along with its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (also themself and theirself), is a gender-neutral third-person pronoun. It typically occurs with an indeterminate antecedent, in sentences such as: > This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid... ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/60 "2023-12-29T16:11:27Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Huh? We’ve been doing exactly that for just one century less than we’ve been using the plural _they_, I’m not disputing this, but I don’t think the singular use of ‘they’ has been in common usage, certainly not to refer to a non-gendered person, until recently. Or maybe it’s just me. Again, I am 100% supportive of referring to non-gendered persons with whatever pronoun they wish. If ‘they’ is the established pronoun, so be it. But if I wished to be referred to with a non-gendered pronoun, I think I would like to have a pronoun of my own. I don’t think the idea is all that controversial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=4)