# Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306 "2023-12-29T10:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/81 "2023-12-29T18:17:47Z")
While I agree “they all” would be nice, I don’t really hear it out in the wild much as a plural. I wonder if “those guys” might be more likely to catch on. It’s true that singular definite they is fairly new, but it was a natural development from singular indefinite they, which has been in use for a very long period of time. The shift from “hypothetical person whose gender is irrelevant” to “specific person whose gender is unknown” had already happened. And it was just natural for that to transition to “specific person whose gender is known, but isn’t male or female.” I find it easy to imaging that last transition on just a single person. You see someone at work. They are dressed rather androgynously, but you like their outfit. You turn to your coworker friend and say “I really like their outfit.” Later on, you meet them, and it turns out they aren’t male or female. It’s then easy to keep on using “they”, like you were using before. Personal pronouns are some of the hardest words to change in a language. They tend to be very closed to new entries, because they are just so essential to the language. But repurposing existing ones, or using noun phrases? That is much easier. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/82 "2023-12-29T18:17:49Z")
It doesn’t pass the cost-benefit threshold _for me._ I think about long threads, where people jump in and out with alacrity, often not reading every post. The devotees _to_ that thread will likely have shared knowledge (ie, the gender of other Dopers _in,_ and subjects _of,_ that thread) that the casual participants may not. The latter, then, may be held to a rather unreasonably high standard that deters them from casually participating in any given thread lest they run afoul of some rather arbitrary convention. I have a very clear handle on the gender of several dozen Dopers. Over time, I’ve learned that my “very clear handle” was dead wrong 😉 ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/83 "2023-12-29T18:19:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, academics tried to do that. And as often happens with language, everyone completely ignored the language that academics were trying to artificially create, Alors! Ma foi! What would the Academie Francaise say about that? Non. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/84 "2023-12-29T18:23:37Z")
I used to favor the Spivak pronouns, and used them when appropriate, in hopes that enough other people would do so that they’d catch on. They didn’t. While it wasn’t my preferred outcome, I accept that “they” has won that battle, and so now I just use that. I do still, however, use “xe” as a pronoun for aliens, or others for whom our notions of gender are likely to be completely inapplicable (but who might well have their own, completely different, notions of gender). ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/85 "2023-12-29T18:33:58Z")
Y’all works for me. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/86 "2023-12-29T18:39:49Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > it’s pretty much always better to use “he/she” constructs or repeat their name when unsure. Twenty years ago, long before personal pronouns became a common problem, I was writing instruction manuals. I disliked he/she on the grounds that it was ugly and interrupted the flow, so I started using “they”. This would be in sentences like - _“If a driver has a problem, they should call xxxx.”_ Someone objected to this and it was discussed at a higher level. The outcome was that “_they_” was okay to use as a gender-neutral pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/87 "2023-12-29T18:46:50Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > However, extending that when the gender of someone is known and clearly there to see is just silly. Late to the party but no it isn’t and your OP is embarrassingly out of touch. For the record, I’m fine with he or they. I wouldn’t particularly mind she but it would be weird. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/88 "2023-12-29T18:53:16Z")
I find it a bit fearful to have to make judgement on a persons preference as to their pro-noun.(out in the world) If they don’t tell you up front what are you supposed to do? It’s off-putting if I walk up to a service counter and say straight up “I prefer “It” as my pronoun.” (aae) I don’t talk in public much. This is one of the reasons I’ve not tried harder. IMO you can be anything you wanna be. Don’t expect me to know it. If I mis-speak I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/89 "2023-12-29T18:58:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I used to favor the Spivak pronouns, and used them when appropriate, in hopes that enough other people would do so that they’d catch on. They didn’t. While it wasn’t my preferred outcome, I accept that “they” has won that battle, and so now I just use that. > > I do still, however, use “xe” as a pronoun for aliens, or others for whom our notions of gender are likely to be completely inapplicable (but who might well have their own, completely different, notions of gender). Yes; that is how I used to use them. ‘E’ for humans, ‘xe’ for aliens, ‘ve’ for virtuals (following Greg Egan in that regard). But the spivak pronoun ‘e’ sounds a lot like ‘he’, so it isn’t very useful for use in speech. So I use ‘they’ now by default, especially since one of my children is non-binary. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/90 "2023-12-29T19:25:11Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > No it’s not. Of course it’s not. My comment was patently absurd and I expected it to be taken as such. i.e. It was a joke. But this little miscommunication is on me, not you. > [@Babale](#): > > I assume he was making a joke about that being a Warhammer ork and Warhammer being a male dominated hobby. That and it’s a skull. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/91 "2023-12-29T19:31:11Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Late to the party Even later but another one of us who cops to, hopefully excusable, laziness. @colinfred if I interact with you in the future I will try to remember that you prefer he/him. That should be respected when reasonably possible. I strongly suspect that I know the preferred gender identification and pronouns of some maybe even many of those I refer to as “they” and am just too lazy to be arsed to even _think_ about it in the flow of a conversation. I certainly wouldn’t make an effort to dig into a profile before making a post. Default “they” is just easier. Heck I barely spend the energy making sure spell check hasn’t changed my post to unintended words or that I didn’t forget to type in some (embarrassingly that happens with some frequency). This is play. Fun. Too much of that makes it work. Usage is awkward. Until it isn’t. Then previous ways seem awkward. “He/she” was fine to me once upon a time; now it sounds ugly. For the record, if I am being engaged with in reasonably mutually respectful manner overall even “it” would be fine by me. Might even get a smile. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/92 "2023-12-29T19:35:57Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > When in fact _y’all_ is a thoroughly cromulent second-person **plural** pronoun. It’s a contraction of _you all_, and is perfectly legal by the rules of English grammar. _All y’all_ is an intensifier, when you’re referring to a large crowd. My apologies, I was badly under-slept when I posted that. You are correct. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/93 "2023-12-29T19:37:17Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Absolutely! And don’t get me started on those unbelievably affected and pompous folks that use the degendering slurs _you_ and _your_! Was this supposed to mean something? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/94 "2023-12-29T19:39:16Z")
Some ~~one~~ they got it, > [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Thanks. I needed a quick shot of SDMB sarcasm to shake off the cobwebs this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/95 "2023-12-29T19:47:07Z")
The use of “they” just reads clunky. When I read it I always have to stop and say “oh, that’s means one particular person”. “They” is defined as “two or more” in the dictionary. I think my 5th grade grammar teacher might’ve beaten in my head as well. It speaks better. When I do speak, I stutter and have weird cadence. I’m very unsure of my speech. I dare not refer to a person, unless by name. It’s a hard choice sometimes to just let what I have to say go for fear of reprisal. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/96 "2023-12-29T19:51:42Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > “They” is defined as “two or more” in the dictionary. You sure about that? [![](https://i.ibb.co/Jxp2Pzb/Screenshot-20231229-114906-Samsung-Internet.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/Jxp2Pzb/Screenshot-20231229-114906-Samsung-Internet.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/97 "2023-12-29T20:24:37Z")
I got it, too! I’m guessing most people did. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/98 "2023-12-29T20:30:08Z")
> [@solost](#): > > > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > > Huh? We’ve been doing exactly that for just one century less than we’ve been using the plural _they_, > > I’m not disputing this, but I don’t think the singular use of ‘they’ has been in common usage, certainly not to refer to a non-gendered person, until recently. Or maybe it’s just me. Its frequency has increased a great deal recently. Styles in grammar have ebbed and flowed over the years, and many of us went to school at the peak of “number matters more than gender. Misgender women rather than use a plural for a singular”. It was also the peak of using male terms to be “inclusive” (not). > [@DSeid](#): > > Heck I barely spend the energy making sure spell check hasn’t changed my post to unintended words Heh. I obviously don’t spend enough effort doing that. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I think my 5th grade grammar teacher might’ve beaten in my head as well. Yes. Some of my high school teachers, too. But the tide has turned. Gender currently matters more than number. (As it apparently did in Shakespeare’s day.) It’s hard for adults to master changes in grammar, but I’m working on it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/99 "2023-12-29T20:30:11Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > Just to clarify, the thing I was referring to was saje “correcting” her own post even though what she wrote in that post was completely generic and thus did not need correcting. I wasn’t saying that “not knowing sombody’s gender” was disingenuous. Whoops! Apologies for my misunderstanding. > [@Odesio](#): > > Of course it’s not. My comment was patently absurd and I expected it to be taken as such. i.e. It was a joke. Whoops again! I may be fairly good at no-pronoun sentences, but I’m not always good at communication in general. (And I know nothing about Warhammer other than that I can guess that it’s a game.) > [@Odesio](#): > > That and it’s a skull. Aha! My eyes were better than I thought! > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > It’s off-putting if I walk up to a service counter and say straight up “I prefer “It” as my pronoun.” (aae) > > I don’t talk in public much. This is one of the reasons I’ve not tried harder. I haven’t usually found it necessary to use pronouns at the service counter at all, other than the already-nongendered “you”. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I find it a bit fearful to have to make judgement on a persons preference as to their pro-noun.(out in the world) > If they don’t tell you up front what are you supposed to do? If they’re clearly presenting as male or female IRL, I’ll go with that unless they ask me to do otherwise. If I can’t tell, which IRL I find quite rare (as far as outward presentation, anyway; and I expect this depends some on where one is), I’ll use either the name (if I managed to catch it) or they/them if I need to use third person pronouns. And – having had 30 years of practice since I started determinedly getting the default male out of the town zoning code – I’ve also gotten pretty good at producing non-awkward phrasing that doesn’t require such pronouns. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > When I do speak, I stutter and have weird cadence. I’m very unsure of my speech. I dare not refer to a person, unless by name. > > It’s a hard choice sometimes to just let what I have to say go for fear of reprisal. Beck, please don’t further lose your voice over this. The worst that’s likely to happen is that somebody asks you to use a different pronoun. Anybody who actually engages in “reprisal” for a single error isn’t anyone whose opinion you need to be worried about anyway. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I think my 5th grade grammar teacher might’ve beaten in my head as well. Mine beat the default male into all of our heads. Not his fault, that was standard at the time. Standards change. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/100 "2023-12-29T20:33:28Z")
I ain’t sure about nothin’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=6)