# Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306 "2023-12-29T10:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/141 "2023-12-30T01:16:30Z")
I’ve also seen the convention that every speaker uses their own pronouns as the default, so a woman would refer to an unknown person as “she”, while a man would refer to an unknown person as “he”. That also doesn’t seem to have caught on. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/142 "2023-12-30T01:26:59Z")
“Y’all” means the people you are directly talking to. “All y’all” means everyone in the immediate vicinity that can hear you when you speak up just a mite. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/143 "2023-12-30T02:11:52Z")
Speaking as a lifelong southerner, that is not the usage I am familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/144 "2023-12-30T02:13:25Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > One of the sensible trends against male dominance in the language that’s seen frequent use lately is to arbitrarily substitute “she” for the usual “he”, as a sort of counterbalance to the usual tendencies, without any particular gender actually being implied. I personally find this more linguistically palatable than the awkward use of a plural pronoun Ooh, that drives me nuts. It ends up being weird and confusing. And in practice, it’s only done in female-dominated areas. (Like childcare.) I find the singular specific they a little awkward, but it doesn’t grind my gears like that used to. I’m sooo glad that practice is being replaced by actual gender-neutral language. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/145 "2023-12-30T02:16:42Z")
Southerner here. To me **y’all** means _you all_ or _you people_ or _you_ or _you and yours_. It’s sort of a throwaway to encompass almost anything. I think. I don’t think I’ve ever said “all y’all” My dogs understand it when I say “y’all dogs quit digging up my bulbs” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/146 "2023-12-30T03:05:51Z")
From Idaho, so probably different from the actual south. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/147 "2023-12-30T03:35:00Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > It is not any sane person’s responsibility to know or care what particular delusions an insane person has, nor to treat those delusions as any kind of reality. This is a direct violation of SDMB rules. Specifically this: > [@](#): > > Please do not state or imply that transgender people are mentally ill. We realize the question remains controversial. However, we’re not going to settle the matter here, and raising it tends to poison other discussion of transgender issues. Please keep your opinions on the subject to yourself. You are not required to agree with this, However, as Ed said, if you don’t agree with this, keep your opinions to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/148 "2023-12-30T04:29:26Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > This dialogue: > > “Mom somebody’s at the door!” > “What do they want?” > > sounds perfectly natural to me. Yeah, that sounds like totally normal English and I find it _very_ hard to believe some people here who claim they have never said that. It’s so standard that I probably say it many times per day and don’t even know it. And no it’s not something that started in the 21st Century. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/149 "2023-12-30T05:22:53Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > One of the sensible trends against male dominance in the language that’s seen frequent use lately is to arbitrarily substitute “she” for the usual “he”, as a sort of counterbalance to the usual tendencies, without any particular gender actually being implied. I personally find this more linguistically palatable than the awkward use of a plural pronoun > > Ooh, that drives me nuts. It ends up being weird and confusing. And in practice, it’s only done in female-dominated areas. (Like childcare.) I find the singular specific they a little awkward, but it doesn’t grind my gears like that used to. I’m sooo glad that practice is being replaced by actual gender-neutral language. Hmm… Sometimes it seems like I can barely speak English, so do not take this too seriously, but if it is necessary to refer to someone whose gender is unknown I will often write “he or she”. I do not think I have ever been consistent when it comes to _abstract_ or generic persons, but they are often female [e.g., to make something up, “A person who desires that which is beyond reason must empty her mind of objective content”], (possibly under the unconscious influence of French?); was not aware that was confusing. In any case, for certain applications there are also generic characters: Alice, Bob, Carol, … ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/150 "2023-12-30T05:31:13Z")
That’s different. The _they_ is unseen in that exchange. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/151 "2023-12-30T06:42:56Z")
That’s all fine. What annoys me is when you have a document about pedagogy, for instance. And there are lots of references to “a child”, and that child is referred to as she in the first paragraph, then he in the second, then back to she in the third, and so on. It could all be about the _same_ hypothetical child. But this child’s gender keeps swapping. In contrast, the standard characters, Alice, Bob, and Carol, are great. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/152 "2023-12-30T07:21:45Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I do not think I have ever been consistent when it comes to _abstract_ or generic persons, but they are often female [e.g., to make something up, “A person who desires that which is beyond reason must empty her mind of objective content”], (possibly under the unconscious influence of French?); As a non-French speaker, may I ask … why? Does it have anything to do with your feelings or attitude towards the subject? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And in practice, it’s only done in female-dominated areas. (Like childcare.) Many articles about cat health issues, or feline care in general, use “she/her” exclusively. To refer to the animal, not the owner. I’m still not sure how to parse that. (On an _I’m sure completely_ unrelated note, no cat food commercial in the history of commercial cat food - of which I’m aware - has featured a male (human) actor. If I’m wrong, please, prove me wrong. I’d love to know that the stereotype was broken by a mainstream commercial.) ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/153 "2023-12-30T07:31:18Z")
There’s a cat commercial running now. I forget what brand. Maybe Smalls. He calls his cat the ninja cat, while laying on the couch with the cat walking on him. Oh there’s another where guy explains how much better his cats fur and eyes are. How much he loves the food and especially the box it comes in. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/154 "2023-12-30T07:57:16Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > (On an _I’m sure completely_ unrelated note, no cat food commercial in the history of commercial cat food - of which I’m aware - has featured a male (human) actor. > > If I’m wrong, please, prove me wrong. I’d love to know that the stereotype was broken by a mainstream commercial.) Here’s one starring Jon Arbuckle himself. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/V51u57IhDHw/hqdefault.jpg "Garfield Alpo Cat Food Commercial - Good Enough for Me (1990)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V51u57IhDHw) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/155 "2023-12-30T08:04:34Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > The _they_ is unseen in that exchange. Unlike the SDMB, where I am watching you all secretly as you post. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/156 "2023-12-30T08:06:21Z")
Mmmm … “grain sources.” How specific. Makes me wonder about the “dairy products.” When the wording is that vague, the legally permissible product is ~~kinda~~ ferrealz sketch. ETA: forgot which thread I was in, this is a total hijack to the O.P. and for that, I do apologize. In my defense, that’s some disturbing product being shilled in the Garfield ad. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/157 "2023-12-30T08:28:49Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Is there a thread I can go to to say that Rivkah Chaya wants to be referred to as She - Her - Hers? you know ive seen MB’s where ours say guest you can put how you want to be addressed… maybe that would alleviate this debate This sounds dumb but the only 2 reasons I know you are female is I knew a girl with the name Chaya in school And you are one of the very few girls I have the slightest acquaintance with that’s into pinball… ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/158 "2023-12-30T08:43:01Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > ive seen MB’s where ours say guest you can put how you want to be addressed… Ooooh, I like that! Taking up space just to announce “Guest” or “Charter Member” really doesn’t do anything for the discussion in any particular thread. Posters instead could use the space for informational data, rather than useless metrics. (I will admit, seeing “Mod” is different than Guest or Ch.M.) Up to the programmer squad, I suppose, to decide if it’s a worthwhile update. ---
**Author:** ![Die\_Capacitrix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/die_capacitrix/32/9_2.png) [@Die\_Capacitrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Die_Capacitrix)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/159 "2023-12-30T08:46:38Z")
> [@solost](#): > > I’ve sometimes wondered how it’s done for new words in languages that apply genders to inanimate objects, like French. ‘The Internet’ is ‘La internet’. Is there a government language department that, sometime in the late 80s - early 90s, decreed that the internet is female? German decided the Internet is neutral. Probably because it is a foreign word which is used in German. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And, if you click on my avatar, you’ll see that although I’m female I have no objection to being referred to as “they/them”. Me as well. My user name is (to me) clearly feminine. But “they” isn’t going to hurt me. If someone uses “he”, I’ll be amused, and might react, but probably wouldn’t flag it. > [@Odesio](#): > > That and it’s a skull. 😆 I have no idea what an ork is, so I thought the skull was the face. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/160 "2023-12-30T08:48:13Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Up to the programmer squad, I suppose, to decide if it’s a worthwhile update. Squad? I don’t think we’ve had a squad since 2004 or so. It’s just hamsters running on wheels keeping this place going. Speaking of which, does anyone remember who was supposed to be feeding the hamsters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=9)