# Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306 "2023-12-29T10:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/161 "2023-12-30T09:18:34Z")
Probably the squad, which, according to your description of things 'round here, explains a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/162 "2023-12-30T09:19:59Z")
I just saw a new pronoun online. Fae/Fairie. Now, how the hell am I supposed to even deal with that? What does it even mean? (I mis-spelled it’s _fae/faer_) ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/163 "2023-12-30T09:44:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve also seen the convention that every speaker uses their own pronouns as the default, so a woman would refer to an unknown person as “she”, while a man would refer to an unknown person as “he”. That also doesn’t seem to have caught on. For obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/164 "2023-12-30T10:34:07Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > (On an _I’m sure completely_ unrelated note, no cat food commercial in the history of commercial cat food - of which I’m aware - has featured a male (human) actor. > > If I’m wrong, please, prove me wrong. I’d love to know that the stereotype was broken by a mainstream commercial.) Here’s one: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/1DOxCmODkk4/hqdefault.jpg "Amore Cat Food Commercial - Fredico - Angelo (1987)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DOxCmODkk4) ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/165 "2023-12-30T11:39:47Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > One of the sensible trends against male dominance in the language that’s seen frequent use lately is to arbitrarily substitute “she” for the usual “he”, as a sort of counterbalance to the usual tendencies, without any particular gender actually being implied. I rarely use ‘she’ as a non-gender specific pronoun, because ‘they’ is much preferable in most situations. With one exception; I generally refer to a hypothetical monotheistic God in this way, because using ‘They’ in this context might imply I thought there was more than one of them. So God is a ‘She’ when I mention Her, simply because I refuse to imply that the Ultimate Entity is in any way defined by human concepts of masculinity or paternalism. This should not be taken to imply that I think that a hypothetical monotheistic god is necessarily female, though I suppose it is not impossible. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/166 "2023-12-30T12:19:09Z")
Ok, so where do we stand when one uses they, instead of she, because the person being addressed is a misogynist ass? Asking for a friend. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/167 "2023-12-30T12:58:49Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Unlike the SDMB, where I am watching you all secretly as you post. I’ve always suspected… ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/168 "2023-12-30T13:04:39Z")
Someone told me that David Weber uses that convention in the Honor Harrington books - I’ve never noticed it, which suggests that the person who told me that was mistaken, or that the usage can be invisible to the reader. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/169 "2023-12-30T14:27:48Z")
I like to keep it neutral or non gendered, are there folks out there personally offended when she/he is called they over she/ he? Probably but [them’s the breaks](https://grammarist.com/usage/they/) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/170 "2023-12-30T14:34:41Z")
I’ll return to posting when it’s definitively established that gender-free pronouns are acceptable in all cases regardless of context. In my case, I’ll use the gender-free pronouns that I prefer (e, em, es, ers, emself). I use my second language, Bengali, as a model, in which all pronouns are gender-free, in the singular and plural. And I deliberately use the term gender-free, as opposed to gender-neutral. Gender-neutral implies to me that gender is a conscious consideration; whereas, gender-free to me means that gender was never an issue to begin with. We have never worried about gender in the first and second persons. Why should it even be a consideration in the third person? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/171 "2023-12-30T14:57:57Z")
Welcome back, however briefly. I’m certainly sympathetic to your POV, but I wonder about this bit … > [@Acsenray](#): > > definitively established that gender-free pronouns are acceptable in all cases regardless of context. Who “definitively establishes”? Who defines “acceptable”? The local rules say anyone is free to use whichever pronouns they prefer for themselves and to report any misgendering or pronoun abuse for mod action. And clearly the substance of this thread is that most of us are using non-gendered pronouns most of the time, especially when referring to each other as opposed to e.g. telling a story about one’s brother or sister. Although you will also see a lot of genderless siblings and spouses around here, more than you’ll probably find in ordinary non-Dope content. I do not see any evidence whatsoever that non-gendered pronouns are _officially_ frowned upon; it’s entirely the opposite. If instead you mean you intend to lurk (or leave) until the last person who prefers to use “he” or “she” stops posting forever, well I’m afraid that condition will not be met within my, and perhaps your, remaining lifetime. I will predict gendered pronouns will substantially disappear from SDMB long before they equally disappear from worldwide English usage. You do you, and with my best wishes. But I wonder what your actual success criteria really are? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/172 "2023-12-30T15:12:16Z")
Names are always safe! I think you can use gender-free pronouns in every case except where another poster has specifically asked you to use something else. (And that ask was recent enough or frequent enough that you ought to be aware of their request.) I’m going to highlight this as a moderator comment because I am speaking for official sdmb policy here. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/173 "2023-12-30T15:13:53Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That’s all fine. What annoys me is when you have a document about pedagogy, for instance. And there are lots of references to “a child”, and that child is referred to as she in the first paragraph, then he in the second, then back to she in the third, and so on. OK, yeah, that would be confusing. Whatever pronoun you’re using for a person, you should be consistent. Thankfully I haven’t encountered that one. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > Someone told me that David Weber uses that convention in the Honor Harrington books - I’ve never noticed it, which suggests that the person who told me that was mistaken, or that the usage can be invisible to the reader. That’s where I noticed it, though I might be the “someone” who told you, so that’s not independent confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/174 "2023-12-30T15:18:26Z")
@Acsenray The only rule I am aware of on pronoun use here is that you are not to misgender trans people. If you consistently use the same gender neutral (or “gender free”) pronouns for everyone, then I don’t see how that could be construed as misgendering. That said, you also did flat out tell me once that you were okay with using “he” or “she” if someone specifically asked you to, due to gender dysphoria. So the above situation shouldn’t even come up. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/175 "2023-12-30T15:37:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’ll return to posting when it’s definitively established that gender-free pronouns are acceptable in all cases regardless of context. When has that ever not been the case? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/176 "2023-12-30T15:42:24Z")
Well, gender-free pronouns are apparently unacceptable to the OP. But I think that this thread shows that the OP is in a very small minority in that regard, and I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that every member of a message board accept any particular linguistic convention. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/177 "2023-12-30T15:57:03Z")
And the rule about misgendering members is not meant to be a “gotcha”, it’s meant to be a form of “don’t be a jerk”. It should be obvious that most of us aren’t sure of the gender of a substantial fraction of posters. Honest mistakes happen. Hell, i have a lot of irl friends who have changed their gender presentation since i met them, and i make mistakes far too often. I get corrected a lot, but no one has unfriended me over it yet. I just correct myself and move on. Do the same here and you’ll be fine. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/178 "2023-12-30T16:19:25Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > > [@DPRK](#): > > > > I do not think I have ever been consistent when it comes to _abstract_ or generic persons, but they are often female [e.g., to make something up, “A person who desires that which is beyond reason must empty her mind of objective content”], (possibly under the unconscious influence of French?); > > As a non-French speaker, may I ask … why? > > Does it have anything to do with your feelings or attitude towards the subject? Not at all. Simply, in French, “personne” is grammatically feminine. However I am not implying that should have real implications for _English_ grammar. > [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Many articles about cat health issues, or feline care in general, use “she/her” exclusively. > > To refer to the animal, not the owner. That happens to be consistent with German: “Katze” is feminine. Referring to a cat as neuter would be incorrect in German, where nouns can be masculine, feminine, or neuter. However a kitten (“Kätzchen”) is neuter—in these cases the choice of pronoun has to do with grammatical gender, not the writer’s attitude. At least in German. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/179 "2023-12-30T18:22:10Z")
> [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > 😆 I have no idea what an ork is, so I thought the skull was the face. The most valuable lesson I’ve learned from this thread is that I am not a good artist. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/180 "2023-12-30T18:34:05Z")
And famously, in German, “Madchen”, meaning “girl”, is also neuter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306.md?page=10)