# Please tell me Babylon 5 gets better. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 17, 2005, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503 "2005-02-17T09:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/41 "2005-02-17T22:13:14Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > I’m sure \*B5 \*was great and I intend to getting around to watch it eventually myself but constantly comparing it to \*DS9 \*and making erroneous statements about the latter to try to build up the former really does nothing to make me think well of the series. If you honestly believe Sisko is the same character in the first episode as the last, then you either saw maybe a minute of one or both episodes or just have a massive bias against the show and just can’t see reality. I don’t believe Sisko was all that different from season 7 compared to season 1. I know a lot of others disagree but there it is. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/42 "2005-02-17T22:38:53Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > I don’t believe Sisko was all that different from season 7 compared to season 1. I know a lot of others disagree but there it is. > > Marc Well, he… had a beard. And he grew some facial hair, too. ba-ZING! ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/43 "2005-02-17T23:02:57Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > I don’t believe Sisko was all that different from season 7 compared to season 1. I know a lot of others disagree but there it is. > > Marc In _Emissary_, he was an embittered man, still seething at Captain Picard for being an accessory to the murder of his wife three years prior but, with the help of the “Wormhole Aliens”, he realized he was living in the past and came to accept what had happened and even eventually made peace and remarried. He also grew in his role as a leader of men since, initially, he didn’t even want assigned to Deep Space Nine and considered it a punishment but, over time, came to accept his duty and even adopted the role of Emissary of the Prophets, gods that he initially considered nothing more than another race of aliens. His passion for his newfound position even led him to martyr himself in the wake of his greatest victories and left behind his family, the thing he holds most dear. I fail to see how that is not a change of character. It’s an almost 180º departure from the man we were first introduced to. ---
**Author:** ![carterba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@carterba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carterba)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/44 "2005-02-17T23:09:08Z")
I missed the whole first season, but I never had any trouble figuring out what was going on in seasons 2-4. I’ve still never seen a single first season episode. I also missed the majority of season 5 (that was my first year at college, and the dorm rooms didn’t have cable hookups), so it seems I missed the lowest points of the show. The three seasons I did see were phenomenal… ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/45 "2005-02-18T00:32:11Z")
> [@Earthworm Jim](#): > > You honestly think this?? I thought the B5 characters showed a hell of a lot more depth than I’m used to seeing on TV. I thought they were all fair representations of real people, both principled & flawed. They might be stereotypical in some ways, but I don’t think they’re 1-dimensional. Yes, I do. I don’t want to hijack this thread with a long involved justification, so I’ll just leave it at that. As others have mentioned, Londo and G’Kar come closest to being really interesting characters, but even with them, plot points are so heavily foreshadowed that nothing ever really comes as a surprise. And, **RogueRacer** , I’m thinking about it. Honestly. ---
**Author:** ![congodwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@congodwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congodwarf)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/46 "2005-02-18T01:53:03Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > And, **RogueRacer** , I’m thinking about it. Honestly. **TVGeek** says start the bidding. He (and I) want them too. **silenus** that Zathras quote is my favorite quote of any kind of all time. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/47 "2005-02-18T02:19:56Z")
> [@sturmhauke](#): > > If this show was any cheesier, I’d be dipping bread cubes into it with long forks. How many of us read this and thought about bagna cauda? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/48 "2005-02-18T03:02:11Z")
> [@Biffy the Elephant Shrew](#): > > How many of us read this and thought about bagna cauda? 😃 \*I can feel my arteries hardening just being in the same room with it. \* 😛 Honestly, I tried bagna cauda after watching Mr. Garibaldi make it, and I really love it now. Definitely an acquired taste, though. After reading up on it I found there are two kinds, one cream based, and the other not. I have just made the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/49 "2005-02-18T03:39:41Z")
Hey, you think that’s good, just wait for dessert. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/50 "2005-02-18T06:21:30Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > I fail to see how that is not a change of character. It’s an almost 180º departure from the man we were first introduced to. Most of that 180 degree departure took place during the pilot episode. I just don’t think his character grew all that much since then. They did have some excellent scripts though and Brooks was a decent actor. Marc ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/51 "2005-02-18T07:16:57Z")
> [@Lobot](#): > > Also, Londo and G’Kar are worth keeping an eye on, not the least of which because both their characters and performances are compelling. Focusing on them should get you through the rougher spots. I loved the stories featuring those two. Londo is my favorite. And yes, the stories do get better as you go. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/52 "2005-02-18T12:05:42Z")
…SPOILER LADEN POST… …when Babylon 5 first started here in NZ, I largely ignored it. I had seen the pilot movie “The Gathering” the year before, and it really didn’t impress me-I thought “Star Trek rip-off” and thought no more of it. A little while later, after, when the Scarecrow took over as Captain, I began watching… the first thing I noticed was the change in the start credits, and the slightly fresher feel of the show… Sheridan’s introduction to the station was very much like my introduction to the programme, he was seeing things through a fresh set of eyes… One of the episodes in the second season that turned the tide for me was the one where G’kar and Londo got stuck in the lift…the “A” story was pretty cornball sci-fi, but the drama, dialouge and acting between our two favourite ambassadors was incredible… Too put it bluntly-I was hooked. And to my amazement, I wasn’t alone. At the time, I was a Banquets Captain at the Sky City Entertainment Complex in Auckland, and as I mentioned the show to a couple of people I was working with, I found out they were fans as well. So the “Babylon 5 Traditions” began at Sky City. Every Saturday at two o’clock ( aside-Bless Television New Zealand, they screened Babylon 5 at 2’oclock every Saturday for the entire run of the series, with the exception of a gap between series four and five, that wasn’t there fault, and even then, a continuity announcer came on and apologised to us fans! I bet you he was a fan himself, as there are never announcements on Saturday afternoons) , the Babylon 5 faithful, if they were at work that day, would stop what they were doing for an hour and gather around a TV set in the corner of a function room, the Data Projector in the Hauraki Ballroom, or even the Television down in the staff cafe… …so season two was what hooked me in…but it was the first episode of season three that reeled me in… [spoiler] The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed. But in the year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, best hope – for victory. The year is 2260. The place: Babylon 5. [/spoiler] Those words sent shivers done my spine. Failed? Shadow War? What’s going on? Up until this narration, I still had the “Star Trek” thing going on in my head, good guys, bad guys, peaceful endings and such, but those words shook me out of my comfort zone… what was going to happen this season? The best way to discribe season 3 of Babylon 5 is a rollercoaster ride… and a fun one at that. Its the “middle of the novel”, and its when most things happen…there is a three episode arc in the middle (Messages From Earth to Servered Dreams) which are some of the most compelling pieces of television I have ever witnessed… Severed Dreams became my favourite episode of all time, for any television show, period. There was a point, when Sheridan was debating with the EA Captain, that I thought that the EA would back off, that things would end peacefully, and that would be that. Uh uh. Not on Babylon 5. What followed was one of the top 3 spacebattles ever put to film (IMHO, of course… up there with Star Wars ANH and the Death Star battle, and the Enterprise Reliant battles from STWOK). I remember not blinking for the first ten minutes of the scene, I remember cursing when they cut to ads in the middle of the battle, and I remember clapping at the end of the episode, which was bizarre, because I was watching it on my own in my bedroom! Season Four seemed rushed, however, as we all know, that was because noone was expecting a season five. I thought the resolution to the Shadow War was about as perfect as you could get, Endgame was a great way to end the EA situation (although it felt rushed), and Deconstruction of Falling Stars was a brave, brave way to end things, it was a great, stand alone science fiction story in the middle of a fantastic novel… Season Five is often criticised, and I could have done with out “Fabio” and most of the Telepath arc, yet without it, I don’t think the series would have been complete. It was the chance for the characters to complete there arcs-remember Londo, in the first season? Gambling, loud, abrasive, a horrible, yet humourous man, to be sure…he literally sold his soul in the episode “Signs and Portents”, he watched in horror as the mass drivers (never thought I would see mass drivers on TV!) pummeled the Narn Homeworld, he struggle for redemption throughout the rest of the series, and at the end, became a tragic, yet heroic figure… The point of my rant? Oh of course, Season One. The best time to watch Season One, In My Humble Opinion, is after the rest of them, just like me… it was amazing to watch the first season after seeing the rest of the series, “arc moments” just stand out, the “point” of the story is crystal clear, and it just makes the series just that more enjoyable… …oh, and Corwin Rocks! (Favourite guy in the background, rivaled only by Wedge, and the fantastic Flight Officer Rigel “Launch When Ready!” ) …I am such a GEEK! ☹ > [@](#): > > Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations. There would never be another. It changed the future, and it changed us. > > It taught us that we had to create the future, or others will do it for us. It showed us that we have to care for each other – because if we don’t, who will? And that strength sometimes comes from the most unlikely of places. > > Mostly, though, I think it gave us hope that there can always be new beginnings, even for people like us. > > As for Delenn… Every morning for as long as she lived, Delenn got up before dawn and watched the sun come up. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/53 "2005-02-18T12:24:36Z")
I’ve also seen very little of the first season, but the rest of the series definitely prompted people to think. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned in this thread is the way the series handled religion. In most science fiction, religion is ignored or overlooked; in Babylon 5, it’s treated as a basic part of life. Delenn is a member of the priest caste; G’Kar is a devout follower of J’Kuan (“Please don’t _thump_ the book of J’Kuan.” – G’Kar to Garibaldi). Ivanova is Jewish. Then there’s the slight matter of the monks on the space station. I’ll now throw in an obligatory plug. For those of you who liked Peter Jurassic as Londo Molari, you might want to check out the book _Diplomatic Act_ which he co-wrote with William H. Keith, Jr. Picture _Galaxy Quest_, but better! No, I’m not just saying that because Bill used to let me hang out in his hot tub! 😉 Oh yes, there’s also the marvelous episode in which Ivanova is expected to get on good terms with an ambassador. It just may be the funniest sex scene in television history! CJ Who wants to be Ivanova, but will settle for being a techno-mage. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/54 "2005-02-18T13:55:24Z")
> [@Miss Mapp](#): > > ( **bouv** , btw, Lennier was played by Bill Mumy, he of Lost In Space, “Danger, Will Robinson!” and Barnes & Barnes, “Fish heads, fish heads, roly-poly fish heads…” fame) :smack: I was getting my Bills confused. “We live for the One, we die for the One.” ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/55 "2005-02-18T13:59:51Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > B5 is my favorite science fiction show, and I feel I need to comment, at least on the “bad” acting. > > The problem, I think, is that most of the acting is average. here are some great actors, though (Andreas Katsulus, the guy who plays Londo, and **Billy West as Lennier** ,. … I know the error has been pointed out by someone else but since I almost shot coffee out my nose picturing [Stimpy’s voice](http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/PersonDetail/personid-1705) as Lennier, I just had to say thanks. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/56 "2005-02-18T15:02:29Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …oh, and Corwin Rocks! (Favourite guy in the background, rivaled only by Wedge, and the fantastic Flight Officer Rigel “Launch When Ready!” ) …I am such a GEEK! ☹ Corwin also gets one of the best comebacks ever: \*\*Ivanova: \*\* "If I get throught this…without going completely insane, it will be a miracle of Biblical proportions! \*\*Corwin: \*\* “Well, there goes _my_ faith in the Almighty!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/57 "2005-02-18T15:16:09Z")
Well, B5 was my favorite soap opera for a long time. And make no doubt – it is a soap opera, complete with all the requisite cheesiness. If that’s not your bag, don’t go there. However, when they got to the climax of the war and the big resolution, I thought it was the biggest cop-out imaginable. Absolutely horrible. I stopped watching the series after that episode and never went back. I mean really… …after all that fighting, they ended the war just by telling these two ancient races “Go away, we don’t need or want you” – and they did! That’s it? Go away? Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/58 "2005-02-18T16:17:53Z")
> [@mrklutz](#): > > Well, B5 was my favorite soap opera for a long time. And make no doubt – it is a soap opera, complete with all the requisite cheesiness. If that’s not your bag, don’t go there. > > However, when they got to the climax of the war and the big resolution, I thought it was the biggest cop-out imaginable. Absolutely horrible. I stopped watching the series after that episode and never went back. I mean really… I thought it was more [spoiler]Younger races saying “We don’t need gods like you any more. We have outgrown the need for morality imposed by powerful alien beings, we can create our own morality from now on.”[/spoile] ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/59 "2005-02-18T16:18:06Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > And, **RogueRacer** , I’m thinking about it. Honestly. Keep us posted. I’ve been threatening to buy them for a few years now. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503/60 "2005-02-18T16:24:27Z")
I’m still haunted by the episode “Passing through Gethsemane,” with Brad Dourif as the murderer who tries to redeem himself but then allows himself to be killed. And one whose title I forget, with Dr. Franklin treating a sick alien boy whose parents have religious objections to surgery. When he defies their wishes, they kill the boy because they they thought he’d lose his soul from having been operated on. Chilling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-babylon-5-gets-better/290503.md?page=4)