# Please tell me I am a fool **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 19, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999 "2020-11-19T23:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/101 "2020-11-21T17:55:43Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Which individual person, exactly, has all the cheat codes to ruining democracy, and what is that code? I challenge you to name it, and I don’t think you can. It’s never one person. Democracy starts to fail when a substantial portion of the people don’t want it anymore, and that is a condition that has now arisen in the USA. Trump probably won’t succeed, because he didn’t plan far enough ahead, but he could have, and American democracy is not in a healthy state. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/102 "2020-11-21T21:19:58Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I think we are essentially in a low level civil war now and that it will continue. The idea of the first civil war was ridiculous to a lot of people until it happened. The fact is that red and blue America do not share the same culture or the same values. Given that they consume different news and red state America’s hostility to science, we are not even living in the same reality. Our visions for America are inherently incompatible. This is true, but 70% of Americas economy occurs in the blue counties. I don’t see the red counties giving up on the blue counties paying their bills and paying their taxes anytime soon. > **[Biden-voting counties equal 70% of America's economy. What does this mean for...](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/biden-voting-counties-equal-70-of-americas-economy-what-does-this-mean-for-the-nations-political-economic-divide/)** > > This economic rift that persists in dividing the nation is a problem because it underscores the near-certainty of both continued clashes between the political parties and continued alienation and misunderstandings. That number keeps growing. It was maybe only 55% under Gore and about 65% under Hillary. So the red states aren’t going to walk away from the blue states and blue counties that pay the bills. They’ll want to run everything plus enjoy the tax revenue from the urban areas. Which means they’ll go for conquest rather than separation. In the civil war, the southern states tried to leave the union. In this situation, the division is urban/rural and the rural areas don’t want the urban areas to stop paying their bills. So sadly going our separate ways isn’t an option. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/103 "2020-11-21T21:52:49Z")
Not only do blue counties account for 70% of the GDP, 10% of America’s GDP uses the NYC transit system. Do both the Dakotas combined produce 10%?We carry red state America and all they do is bitch and moan. The thing is, they think they’re the hard working backbone. What blue state America needs to do is fund secession movements in red states, they get riled up and go all Brexit on us and by the time they figure out that they need us, it’ll be too late. Call it Rexit. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/104 "2020-11-21T22:36:02Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Again, by making this about Trump, you are missing the main issue which is that all of our institutions are failing and we do not seem to have the political resiliency to respond to the challenges we face. > > If, in January, Trump leaves office, you get to say “see? Everything is fine,” when in fact huge problems will remain. Incorrect. I did not and would not suggest everything will be fine when Trump leaves office. I did not make this about Trump; the OP did. I am sticking with the OP and concerning myself with the narrow question of whether Trump can steal this election; you and other respondents are shifting the goalposts to insist there will be long-term institutional damage from Trump. (And there will! And it’s bad! But that’s separate from the question of stealing the election. Seen Bill Barr dipping his paddle into this fiasco? Nope. He knows there’s nothing he can do) Everything will not be fine when Trump is gone. But, speaking to the question in the OP, Trump will absolutely be gone and he will not steal this election. I have been pointing out since August that the rest of you are hyperventilating about him stealing the election; when he leaves office I will gloat unremittingly over my correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/105 "2020-11-21T23:38:52Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > You’re both calling for forces external to the opposition party to dissolve it. That’s not strawmanning. That’s a direct reading of what you wrote, based on the context of the sentence you were supporting. It’s no leap to find a totalitarian call for the disbandment of the opposition party by the left to be equivalent to the idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat. I’m not building up a false analogy and burning it down. I’m taking your words exactly as you wrote them. > > If you meant something different, feel free to explain yourself. But don’t pretend you’re supporting democratic principles while agreeing with “they must be disbanded if democracy is to survive”. Let me put forward my own analogy here: there is a foot race amongst five people. During the race, one of the racers pull out a gun and starts taking potshots at the other racers. The other racers, unsurprisingly, demand the other racer be arrested. Under the type of argument you pose, the other racers would be considered “tyrannical” in demanding the arrest of a competitor. After all, they’re calling on a force external to the race to remove another racer. But what you’re doing in your analysis of the political situation is - very carefully and deliberately - excluding the rather critical fact that one party is acting in a manner that is disruptive, destructive, or questionable legality and on a wide enough scale to cause considerable (and potentially permanent) damage to the rules and institutions under which the competition is being held. And deliberately selecting - and, more importantly, excluding - crucial information in order to impose an alternate narrative inevitably produces a strawman, as you have indeed done. It is not hyperbole to state that what the Republican Party have done and are currently doing poses a very real and existential threat to the conduct of free and fair elections in America. All the “gosh, gee whiz, it’s the Democrats who are the real villains here for demanding accountability for the Republican’s actions” arguments rely on that deliberate exclusion of the severity and scale of those actions. And while doing everything possible to avoid accountability (and to accuse the other side of doing what they themselves are openly doing is par for the course for the American right-wing, demanding that they be held accountable and appropriately punished for their actions is not tyrannical. And let’s be clear: the problem is no longer a few “bad apples” in the GOP. It runs from the bottom to the top party leaders, most notably the President, the Senate Majority Leader, the Attorney General, as well as the vast majority of other elected Republican officials, appointees, party officials and assorted hangers-on. Stating that the current Republican Party is fundamentally incompatible with the tenets of American democracy is not tyrannical either. I do accept that there are many people who ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/106 "2020-11-21T23:47:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I do accept that there are many people who That seemed just a wee bit ominous. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/107 "2020-11-21T23:55:32Z")
Sorry - submitted too soon, then took too long to edit. Not dead yet… What I was going to say: I do accept that there are many people who are perfectly happy for one race participant to gain an unfair advantage, even unto engaging in blatantly unethical and potentially illegal practices. And I have a pretty good idea which racer’s name is on those people’s betting slips. > [@enewbold](#): > > Trump being reelected would be SAVING the American experiment, my friend. He will keep communism out of our country and allow free enterprise to continue. He will maintain a strong military to prevent future wars. He will lower your taxes. What else do you want? > > If you are a socialist, read up on socialism. It kills. America is not under threat of communism. The Democrats are not remotely communist, nor are they Marxist or socialist (also, “communism”, “socialism” and “Marxism” are not synonymous, as you would know if you’d “read up” on them). The Democratic Party remains staunchly corporatist, and the distinctly capitalist American economy has thrived under the previous two Democratic administrations. As for “socialism” killing, I’m not particularly socialist but - having read up on it - I know that “socialist” healthcare leads to far better outcomes at far lower cost and without excluding anyone from receiving it. The heavily capitalist system America has, however, “killed” thousands every year and bankrupted thousands more. Furthermore, many Western countries - most notably the Scandinavian ones - have varying levels of socialism and enjoy the highest levels of happiness in the world. So frankly, Trump’s not saving us from anything. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/108 "2020-11-22T00:10:54Z")
So you are replicating the mistake of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/109 "2020-11-22T01:15:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > … This isn’t defensive pessimissm. This is clear-eyed realization that institutional integrity is a myth. We can’t rely on the the words written on paper in the Constitution or or other beloved documents to protect us. We have to rely on the good will and good faith actions of the people who work their way into positions of power. We do now, yes. I agree with your entire post, but will comment on the quoted bit: We’ve learned that depending on office-holders to behave with honor and integrity is no longer a viable means of running a government. There will be increasing calls for those “norms” on which we’ve relied to be codified into law–particularly for Presidents, but at other levels of government, too. A long article in WaPo boils down to this list of violations we can no longer leave up to the “good faith” of a President: > [@](#): > > **1. Personally profiting from official business** > > **2. Not releasing tax returns** > > **3. Refusing oversight** > > **4. Interfering in Department of Justice investigations** > > **5. Abusing appointment power** > > **6. Insulting allies while cozying up to authoritarians** > > **7. Coarsening presidential discourse** > > **8. Politicizing the military** > > **9. Attacking judges** > > **10. Politicizing diplomacy and foreign policy** > > **11. Undermining intelligence agencies** > > **12. Publicizing lists of potential Supreme Court picks** > > **13. Making far more false or misleading claims than any previous president** > > **14. Abusing the pardon power** > > **15. Using government resources for partisan ends** > > **16. Making racialized appeals and attacks** > > **17. Dividing the nation in times of crisis** > > **18. Contradicting scientists** > > **19. Derailing the tradition of presidential debates** > > **20. Undermining faith in the 2020 election results** > **[Trump dramatically changed the presidency. Here’s a list of the 20 most...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/lifestyle/magazine/trump-presidential-norm-breaking-list/)** > > The election was a referendum on Trump’s norm-breaking. We examine what’s been ignored and undermined and why preserving presidential norms is essential. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/110 "2020-11-22T01:32:35Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The Democratic Party remains staunchly corporatist To be pedantic, they certainly don’t. “Corporatism” doesn’t mean “in favor or corporations doing business.” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/111 "2020-11-22T02:15:31Z")
So they’re not stealing the car; they’re just taking the tires and the engine out so nobody else can drive it. Go ahead and gloat, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/112 "2020-11-22T03:14:45Z")
1. You can’t/won’t answer the questions, when asked, you don’t get to sit on the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/113 "2020-11-22T05:41:57Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > It is a question of getting the state legislators to ignore the votes of their constituents and appoint the slate of Republican electors as the state’s official electors. > [@RickJay](#): > > Faithless electors aren’t the point. It’s not Trump’s plan to convince Democratic electors to vote faithlessly. It’s his plan to have Republican-run states simply ignore the popular vote and send Republican electors. I think that’s even more unlikely to work than the faithless electors. See Michigan. I thought the point of the thread was to talk the OP out of worrying about something that’s unlikely to happen. Nothing is impossible, of course, but there are things that are more unlikely than others. > [@](#): > > To succeed, Trump’s plan would require several unprecedented legal steps. First, Republican-led legislatures in states Biden won would need to move to overturn their state’s popular vote and appoint a slate of Trump electors when the Electoral College meets on Dec. 14. In Pennsylvania and Michigan, such maneuvers would be certain to meet vetoes from Democratic governors, so the lawmakers would also need to secure a legal determination that they hold the sole power to appoint electors — a disputed legal premise that has never been tested. > . . . > As of Friday evening, Pennsylvania’s GOP leaders said they had not received an invitation to meet Trump at the White House, but last month, they said they would not step in to alter the election results. > **[Trump calls on GOP state legislatures to overturn election results](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/21/trump-state-legislatures-overturn-election-results-439031)** > > The president’s comment comes after a series of legal defeats, and with his options dwindling. > [@RickJay](#): > > Incidentally, Trump lawyer Sidney Powell confirmed today they want all swing state legislatures to simply overturn the election and appoint Republican electors. Sidney Powell is a nut job. When Tucker Carlson calls you a nutjob about the Trump fraud election conspiracy theory, you’ve raced past alien invasion level of conspiracy theory. Tucker Carlson says she has no evidence. UFO sightings have more evidence. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/BspHzH6RRxo/maxresdefault.jpg "MUST-SEE: Tucker Carlson ABANDONS Trump’s election fraud case on air") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BspHzH6RRxo) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/114 "2020-11-22T06:50:17Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > Sidney Powell is a nut job. When Tucker Carlson calls you a nutjob about the Trump fraud election conspiracy theory, you’ve raced past alien invasion level of conspiracy theory. Tucker Carlson says she has no evidence. UFO sightings have more evidence. I started a thread asking if she was nuts. It’s not just that what she’s saying is nuts… she SOUNDS nuts. There is a straining in her voice, and a way that the longer she talks she keeps adding more, increasingly crazy accusations that she obviously made up on the spot, that really reminds me of people struggling to hold their sanity together. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/115 "2020-11-22T07:02:31Z")
I hear the strain in her voice as well. And there are times it is worse and it does seem to depend on what she is talking about, like it mirrors her internal stress. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/116 "2020-11-22T12:30:56Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > So they’re not stealing the car; they’re just taking the tires and the engine out so nobody else can drive it. Perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/117 "2020-11-22T12:36:17Z")
> **[Yes, Trump Is (Still) Engaged in an Attempted Coup; and Yes, It Might Lead to...](https://verdict.justia.com/2020/11/19/yes-trump-is-still-engaged-in-an-attempted-coup-and-yes-it-might-lead-to-a-constitutional-crisis-and-a-breaking-point)** > > UF Levin College of Law professor and economist Neil H. Buchanan explains why Donald Trump’s actions reflect an attempted coup and might still lead to a constitutional crisis. In this column, Buchanan... > This is not a prediction but a warning. If we want the United States to continue to be a constitutional republic, we cannot assume that Joe Biden’s election victory assures his inauguration on January 20, 2021. Not without a lot more work by those who care about this country. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/118 "2020-11-22T12:45:45Z")
More from there— > My central point in this column, however, is quite simple. Trump’s losses are piling up, making it tempting to think that he has become an ineffectual loser with no cards left to play. That is a dangerously complacent idea, however, because Trump has shown that he will try anything to illegitimately seize power—to commit a coup against the legitimately elected incoming President of the United States. > One can hope that his losing streak will continue, but hope is not a plan. People must make it clear that any avenues by which Trump might try to stay in power are illegitimate—and then we will hold on tight and hope that enough people in responsible positions listen to reason, allowing us to keep our democracy intact for at least a few more years. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/119 "2020-11-22T14:22:51Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So you are replicating the mistake of the OP. Here I’m wondering if anybody has even _read_ the OP. Or maybe there’s some board rule where every Trump-related question must devolve into a hand-wringing jeremiad of “he’s broken everything and he can do whatever he wants”. That’s not even a falsifiable position (until Jan 20th, of course), but even a cursory tour of the facts suggests it’s not remotely realistic to suggest everything is broken and Trump is wholly unconstrained. In fact, insisting that Trump has _already_ attained autocracy, in my opinion, is a direct contributor to him and so many of his supporters behaving as if it’s true. You’re helping supply the feedback loop when you do this. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999/120 "2020-11-22T14:26:28Z")
A lot of us are having a discussion here about what Trump says about America and where it is. You want to focus on one very narrow slice of that discussion to win a very narrowly defined argument. You point out why that argument is flawed and not worth having and then you dig in on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-i-am-a-fool/925999.md?page=7)