The only reason it isn’t likely is that he’s finally asking too much.
My wife has been asking for 4 years “Why do they let him get away with this? Why don’t they stop this clearly immoral/unethical/illegal behavior?” and my answer is, most of the time, that there is no “they” to stop him. Other times, the “they” is just a bunch of politicians, half of whom are Republican, and will fight any effort to stop him.
Thus, we can say that more Republican Senators have had Covid than have admitted Biden won the election. Despite the fact that Biden won by a large margin, and there is no objective evidence of any fraud outside of the typical miniscule amount found in any election.
But some people are standing up to Trump, judges dismissing his cases, election officials declaring openly that their elections weren’t tampered with. The trouble is that it depends on these people standing up to the sitting President, who is publicly claiming that the election is being stolen from him due to fraud. It’s fucking insane.
Your entire post is very well said and I agree to varying degrees with all points. I would still be a lurker if all the posts on this board were at this caliber. (And no disrespect is intended to any other poster by that comment.)
Although I agree in principle to your arguments, I will take a small potential exception to the point I quoted. I do believe half of Trump’s supporters are blindly loyal and beyond reason. But the other half are just scared and ill-informed and utterly unable to think for themselves. If they could be led by a significantly better Republican/conservative (and frankly almost any one would be better than Trump) - but someone with any character at all – those citizens could become decent human beings again.
People hardly ever react as they believe they would in a crisis and we have been in a crisis for more than the last four years. Conservatives are scared and feel persecuted and entities like FOX News have learned that if they call themselves a news organization while being the exact opposite that they can profit from that juxtaposition.
Please, let’s not write off the whole country as hopeless. People can learn and progress can be made; it will be tough, and probably slow, but the future is not written yet.
Last point in this already far to long reply. A year or two ago someone on this board mentioned that this generation has never had a real genuine challenge. A great depression, a world war, and most don’t even remember Viet Nam (even I was too young to be affected by it although I remember it). The terror attacks of 2001 was our worst catastrophe and it DID bring people together for a while. (Now a comedian is the main voice trying to champion the hero’s of that event which is so fucking sad!) My point is let’s not wait for some external disaster to motivate us to be better, more accepting and compassionate, and let’s stop fearing any form of compromise like it was castration or death.
As the world grows more connected and interdependent, it also seems determined to fracture. Maybe that is why there is only one Star Trek but eight-hundred-thousand dystopian universes. A fair and encompassing leader can steer us back into an uneasy whole which beats the hell out of a shattered collection of fragments. It is possible, not likely and surely not easy – but possible. I think it is worth the effort.
They are different camps, I know them well- they are my friends and family and neighbors. And they are different in the way your siblings are different from your parents or your children. I was one of them a decade ago. Some ARE lost causes, some are just afraid and have been told lies they don’t know they can challenge yet.
Every dog in a pack is still and individual dog – every cattle beast in a herd is an individual cow. Is it so hard to believe that humans can change? I did it and I am nothing special; others can see and learn and grow. There are several former Republicans on this board who are not Democrats yet and may never be.
This has not brought out the best in us has it? That is my point, in the past it always has! Perhaps if we can keep the blame to Trump himself (and not the blame the sheep-people for being sheep-people) Mr. Biden can get us once again to join together to be one nation. If a quarter of them refuse and kill each other off that is on them. The ones that will come around should be accepted and perhaps we can be gracious winners and be sympathetic that they were duped by a crazy man and his propaganda machines posing as news organizations.
Is it so vital that the left be as petty and small minded as the right has been?? Give them a chance to move away from the crazy, welcome them as misguided – not the source of the problem, victims of the ones who were supposed to lead us. You know, to some following leaders is a GOOD thing. Give them a chance to follow a better leader and they may turn out to be better people.
Some – very much yes!
But some . . . . . I think you are mistaking loud and stupid for committed. They ARE followers. They hated Romney until he locked up the nomination – then he became their very weak standard bearer. Then they hated him again. Same with McCain, even Bush Jr. was loved then hated and now . . . loved again.
Trump had four years to brainwash them, it will take a year to clear that shit out of their brains – but if they are welcome they may embrace Biden. If they are unwelcome surely they will find someone on the right to follow and that will be less than ideal.
(I hate repeatedly referring to this group as “they”. They CAN be individuals, they are just rusty at it right now. Some of them are quite bright and capable; once you get them to a place where they get some perspective they just may surprise you with their ability to not believe utter bullshit. Just have to get them far enough away to see the whole picture [story of blindfolded describing elephant after using only touch to learn about elephants].
To some degree you are completely correct. But a large fraction WILL completely reform under another set of facts if given the chance. I suggest we not demonize them while they reconsider (they are not even going to start to rethink things until January – can we give them until next October to make adjustments? Or are they forever defined by this moment in time?
Sure, I know some who are doctors and lawyers. Many of them who run businesses. My sister is the general manager of a major area hotel, the fact that she believes that we never went to the moon doesn’t seem to interfere with the ability to run logistics with over a hundred employees and several hundred guests. She’s bright, she’s capable, but she’s also woefully naïve and ignorant about things she doesn’t want to believe.
I am actually against demonizing them in any fashion. They are people that I know, they are some people that I even love.
That doesn’t mean that I respect them. And they are welcome to change my opinion of them by changing their attitude.
I don’t know if they will reform, and if they do so just because Fox news tells them to, is that actually any better?
My understanding is that FOX is out these days – just as false as the other “fake news” networks. I suppose that i am fortunate that most of those in my circle are a little more open to science than your sister.
But don’t you mostly find they are easily manipulated - - as long as the message they WANT to hear? My circle is most influenced by religious influences which make FOX News look like. . . . . a legitimate news source by comparison. They all believe Joe Biden is going to attempt to crush Christianity and bring on godless Communism (at least Socialism – and it doesn’t matter they are all the same to them).
I have noticed they are fine with science they learned in school – but HIGHLY distrustful of any science discovered since school. The older ones still believe lead paint and leaded gasoline are okay because they grew up with it. If the generation ahead was still alive they might still embrace asbestos and insist cigarettes are a healthy stress releaver. Abortion is just early onset infanticide, all stem cell research is murder, etc. Their kids will be fine with all of those sacred cows – but be up in arms over something we don’t even know about yet.
I keep hoping once they see Trump didn’t actually win the election, and the pandemic is real, and Biden is not determined to stamp out Christendom, that like Catholic kids from the sixties they will realize not all sex is wrong and dirty- and that masturbating will not cause you to grow hair on your palms, and that “liberal” does not equate evil. I am concerned that by they time they process all that someone on the left will have told them they are the problem and beyond rescue and the tribalism will deepen.
Yes, they are far too invested in media like FOX News, but if Fox starts telling them factual news, I will be delighted! Of course they will still be sheep, but better informed sheep. I am glad we agree; I am profoundly sad so many of us have family who are so blind to reality.
I don’t have a crystal ball, so I can’t tell you what’s going to happen in the next 4 to 40 years. Plus Europe has it’s own issues I’m sure. The fact that you decided to move there with your family doesn’t necessarily tell me that it was a good decision (at least other whether it’s a good decision based on your particulars).
I’m not concerned about Trump staying in power, however, I am concerned about the idiocy that put him in power and supports him staying there. It is clearly a symptom of a deeper division in this country that goes beyond party lines or even racism IMHO. And it’s not entirely clear what it is exactly.
With a fringe, but it is still pretty powerful. I know that some of my family shares stuff from OANN and “The War Room” now, but they still have Fox on whenever I come over.
Yes, exactly. And they seek out sources that tell them what they want to hear.
I think in the opposite way. The more I like what I am hearing, the more I question it. The more I question the one telling me this.
That’s already happened. It doesn’t matter if you or I say something like that, it doesn’t matter how much discipline we put into our message, if someone somewhere on some blog or twit feed says anything bad about them, then that will be amplified and be used over and over as a prop showing how mean the liberals are to them.
It doesn’t matter that the ones that they have elected, the ones that they watch in the media straight up call liberals evil and anti-American and all that crap, it doesn’t matter that liberals are called out as the problem, and beyond rescue every single day. Anyone on the left says anything less that unfailingly polite to anyone on the right, and they are being demonized and persecuted.
If they require direction to lead them to good choices instead of bad — if they have no independent moral compass by which to make such a determination on their own — if they will do good under the leadership of a benevolent dictator but remain open to doing evil under the influence of a malevolent master — then they are hardly decent human beings at all.
I think the system’s checks and safeguards worked…this time.
But remember, we went from “You’re either with us or with the terrorists” to the Tea Party, and we went from Tea Party to MAGA. Republicans (conservatives) aren’t getting better; they’re getting worse, and dragging us down with them.
It’s a relief that Michigan certified yesterday’s vote - to be sure, I think the effort to somehow get Trump re-elected would have ultimately failed anyway, but putting the country through a growing manufactured drama or crisis would have been incredibly damaging.
Also to be sure, there has already been some damage sustained from this. The certification process is almost always drama free. The fact that millions of people tuned in to what should have been something as simple as a rubber stamp tells you how serious our problems are right now.
The good news is, there is still time and an opportunity to fix things.