# Please tell me why you claim Bush lied about WMD? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650 "2005-03-21T23:53:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/141 "2005-03-24T22:45:23Z")
Not directly applicable to any of the well-reasoned comments from either side here so far, but singularly àpropos in my opinion, is the following quote I ran across: > [@Lord Dunsany](#): > > [It was] an incident that struck me as unlikely; but in the hills of Sneg I met an honest politician. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/142 "2005-03-24T23:13:17Z")
Here’s the entirety Dr Rices learned commentary in question(.pdf) - [Promoting the National Interst](http://www.cfr.org/pdf/79105.pdf) & for good measure [Congressional Record](http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/10/dci100702.html) Senior Intelligence Witness: . . . the probability of [Hussein] initiating an attack … in the foreseeable future, given the conditions we understand now, the likelihood I think would be low. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/143 "2005-03-24T23:23:13Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Nothing funny about dying, but a Weapon of Mass Destruction a letter with anthrax spores on it certainly is not. Quite. But not laughable either. > [@](#): > > So, for all these reasons, yes. I would have waited and continued inspections, sanctions, and the finishing of the job in Afghanistan. A fair and honest opinion. How long would you have waited if the intelligence situation did not change, BTW. Finally, the question as to this OP, why do you demonize those who disagree by calling them liars? Your mitigating factors are certainly reasonable. But do they amount to proof beyond all reasonable doubt that rational people could disagree with your threat assessment and intelligence analysis? BTW, sorry about the quote mixup in my last post. I quoted you and did not correctly attribute it. > [@rjung](#): > > Are you saying you would go to war, invade another country, risk the lives of thousands of servicemen, and eat a Primus-knows-how-many billion-dollar deficit to prevent/avenge the deaths of a half-dozen anthrax letter victims? No, just that it is not laughable. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/144 "2005-03-25T00:16:33Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > You do know that what was found in that guys fridge was not at all weaponized and was a research strain for an agri univ, don’t you? Yeah; I was just pointing out that there are (hypothetical) stockpiles which pose war-worthy threats, and “stockpiles” that serve only as flimsy rationales for damn fool wars. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/145 "2005-03-25T00:30:15Z")
Hmmmm. Bio-chem warfare at a Baghdad Agricultural school, and then a mad cow outbreak in Britain and America. Coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/146 "2005-03-25T03:42:31Z")
The President’s own [WMD commission](http://www.wmd.gov/) is about to tell us how [crummy the Iraq intelligence was](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/03/24/national/w153210S70.DTL). The Republican controlled Senate Intelligence Committee, has decided not to do [its promised examination](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20050411&s=corn) of “how the Bush Administration used–or abused–the prewar intelligence to build support for the Iraq invasion.” > [@](#): > > In mid-March, Roberts declared further investigation pointless. He noted that if his committee asked Bush officials whether they had overstated or mischaracterized prewar intelligence, they’d simply claim their statements had been based on “bum intelligence.” Roberts remarked, "To go though that exercise, it seems to me, in a postelection environment–we didn’t see how we could do that and achieve any possible progress. Duct tape over intelligence failures will not fix a broken executive. Of course we don’t even want to know how badly the executive is broken. That might disturb us. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/147 "2005-03-25T03:52:38Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > The Republican controlled Senate Intelligence Committee, has decided not to do [its promised examination](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20050411&s=corn) of “how the Bush Administration used–or abused–the prewar intelligence to build support for the Iraq invasion.” I wonder why this is. I’m making plans to visit with some of these folks in person now that I’m here. I’ve just got to finish saving up for my digital recorder so’s I can post their responses to the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/148 "2005-03-25T04:24:04Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > I wonder why this is. But he _said_ it’s that darn postelection environment. When you couple the perils of that with the events of 9/11, I’m just not sure that America could handle the truth. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/149 "2005-03-25T04:34:07Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > I wonder why this is. > > I’m making plans to visit with some of these folks in person now that I’m here. I’ve just got to finish saving up for my digital recorder so’s I can post their responses to the internet. If you’re serious then I would like to donate to this cause. I am 100% serious here. **pervert** The reason I feel comfortable saying “Bush lied” is twofold. Firstly, because the situation was, as I roughly sketched above, a complex situation. No honest analysis could have rendered it into [what Bush said in his “48 hours” address to the nation](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/sprj.irq.bush.transcript/). > [@](#): > > Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that **the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised**. This regime has already used weapons of mass destruction against Iraq’s neighbors and against Iraq’s people. > > The regime has a history of reckless aggression in the Middle East. It has a deep hatred of America and our friends and **it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of Al Qaeda**. The danger is clear: Using **chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons obtained with the help of Iraq** , the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country or any other. Emphasis mine. At every step of the way one of my numbered points must have been staring him in the face, and he must, simply must, have made a conscious decision to refuse to accept the first-hand reports of the inspectors. The unconfirmed suspicions of collaboration with Al Qaeda. Yet nothing in this speech, on the eve of the war and broadcast to the nation, even HINTS of ANY uncertainty. I don’t see ANY honest analysis of a situation which included the facts I enumerated in my last post, all of which were available pre-war to anyone who did their homework as I did, which could have produced the statements in that speech. My second reason is a bit more conspiracy-like. It has to do with the Office of Special Plans and pre-9/11 emphasis on Iraq by key administration officials. That is too deep a discussion to get into here at the moment. So, for these two reasons I feel the label of lying son of a bitch is plainly applicable to George W. Bush. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/150 "2005-03-25T04:51:37Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > So, for these two reasons I feel the label of lying son of a bitch is plainly applicable to George W. Bush. Please believe that I understand and except this entirely. But if you look carefully, I was not really asking why you think Bush lied. Just why you think there is no way to come to the other conclusion. If you don’t mind I’d rather not get into parsing Bush’s or his administrations statements from that time. I’d only ask you to relook at them and check again your conclusions about them. Again, not at all with the idea that you might change your mind, only that you might see how someone else might honestly come to the opposite conclusion. That’s probably enough for this issue. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/151 "2005-03-25T05:06:51Z")
I happen to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I have considered other options with an open mind, even with a mind inclined towards dark conspiracies. (I used to be bit paranoid, but they stopped following me and I got better…). Now, I could re-examine the evidence, with any eye towards lending a degree of plausibility to other theories, other elaborate conjectures that maybe, just maybe, Lee Harvey Oswald did _not_ shoot Kennedy. But there’s no way I can wrap my mind around the suggestion that Kennedy wasn’t shot. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/152 "2005-03-25T06:42:17Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > … > > > [@Sevastopol](#): > > > > Lastly an addendum. The deal was always; there are weapons or Bush is lying. It’s poor form to try to weasel out now. > > I don’t think anyone ever agreed to this deal except you. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Why, gladly. Consider yourself corrected. On the other hand, these exercises of close critical reading aren’t really necessary. It’s relevatory to look at the big picture, cast your mind back to the pre-war months. The deal was as I’ve stated it; Weapons or Lying. Those were the terms of the discussion. This ‘perhaps it was an honest mistake’ confectionary is just after-the-fact unsporting behaviour. Honest mistake, oh yes? Show me someone trying out that line before Feb 2002 and then we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/153 "2005-03-25T06:52:23Z")
If I recall, Ahmed Chalabi tried floating that particular balloon, declaring the alliance of his band of patriots and the Bushivik Admin as “heroes in error”. If only Barbara Tuchman were still with us, what fun she could have… ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/154 "2005-03-25T06:54:51Z")
**Pervert** : Which of the following do you think best characterises the approach of the US administration pre-war. (A) US: We have evidence that Iraq may still have these weapons. Some people: Well, we’re not sure, going to war is a pretty big step. US: Here’s what we’ve got, some people have told us this, this picture our analysts think shows that. (B) US: Iraq has wmd, we know they have them, we know where they are. Some people: That doesn’t sound good, but are you sure? US: God, weren’t you listening? Do you want terrorists sending you anthrax? Look, here’s some pictures of the actual sites where they make the weapons. Now do you think I’m making it up? These are facts. (A) would constitute a mistaken analysis (assuming that the information had not been deliberately misskewed), (B) is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/155 "2005-03-25T13:42:49Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > If you’re serious then I would like to donate to this cause. I am 100% serious here. I didn’t move halfway across the country only to do what I was doing in AR. I came to DC with a purpose. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/156 "2005-03-25T13:57:34Z")
How very odd! Suddenly I hear the theme song for _Pinky and The Brain_. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/157 "2005-03-25T14:08:19Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Why, gladly. Consider yourself corrected. > > On the other hand, these exercises of close critical reading aren’t really necessary. It’s relevatory to look at the big picture, cast your mind back to the pre-war months. The deal was as I’ve stated it; Weapons or Lying. Those were the terms of the discussion. This ‘perhaps it was an honest mistake’ confectionary is just after-the-fact unsporting behaviour. > > Honest mistake, oh yes? Show me someone trying out that line before Feb 2002 and then we’ll talk. I does seem to me that we ought to be able to expect more of political leaders than that they couldn’t actually be convicted of perjury in court. Their decisions cost lives and a considerable amount of the national wealth and they shouldn’t be pardoned for slipping by on the basis of legalisms. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/158 "2005-03-25T14:34:40Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I does seem to me that we ought to be able to expect more of political leaders than that they couldn’t actually be convicted of perjury in court. Their decisions cost lives and a considerable amount of the national wealth and they shouldn’t be pardoned for slipping by on the basis of legalisms. We’re _obligated_ to expect more. Not all “fighting for freedom” involves bloodshed. Not all vigilance is against external enemies. Not trying to lecture you, just my nickel’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/159 "2005-03-25T15:16:51Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Why, gladly. Consider yourself corrected. I’m sorry, I should have been more specific. Would you kindly refer me to any person who agreed with the invasion and agreed before the invasion that if no WMD were present that would constitute a lie on the administration’s part? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650/160 "2005-03-25T15:21:46Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > **Pervert** : > > Which of the following do you think best characterises the approach of the US administration pre-war. > > (A) > > US: We have evidence that Iraq may still have these weapons. > Some people: Well, we’re not sure, going to war is a pretty big step. > US: Here’s what we’ve got, some people have told us this, this picture our analysts think shows that. > > (B) > > US: Iraq has wmd, we know they have them, we know where they are. > Some people: That doesn’t sound good, but are you sure? > US: God, weren’t you listening? Do you want terrorists sending you anthrax? Look, here’s some pictures of the actual sites where they make the weapons. Now do you think I’m making it up? These are facts. > > (A) would constitute a mistaken analysis (assuming that the information had not been deliberately misskewed), (B) is a lie. Honestly, I am more inclined to choose the A. I do not follow any columnists anymore, so I get that impression from reading speeches rather than summaries of them afterward. But it was my impression that the intelligence was given to members of congress. Some of whom had access to intelligence analysts for direct questioning. Additionally, in almost every speech in which a sentence or two can be shown to be inflamatory ala (B), there is usually a sentence or two which is more cautionary as well. JMHO of course. Just for the record, **PatriotX** , and **David Simmons** I never said that concluding that Bush did not lie meant exhonorating him of all wrong doing. I have many objections to the war and how it was carried out. But that we were tricked into it simply does not seem to be that reasonable to me. Again, JMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-tell-me-why-you-claim-bush-lied-about-wmd/295650.md?page=9)