Please tell me why you claim Bush lied about WMD?

Check your board-listed email.

pervert, I’ve tried. Please believe me I’ve tried. I would like nothing better than to be wrong and to be able to believe my elected officials were left with no other option than to start killing people. Every time I see the body count or see a report of women and children blown up at a marketplace I think “God in heaven I wish I could believe there was no other option than to create the situation which precipitated their deaths.” I was hoping for a report to come out of the senate committee saying “there was classified evidence which was very strong and had been checked for accuracy and the case for war was well-founded based on this evidence.” Now it looks like I won’t even get that, so I’ll continue to live in a state of unease because I can’t see an honest reason for why we’re at war at all. God damn it, I HATE feeling like a tin-foil hatter or conspiracy theorist, but I just don’t see any reality-based justifications that hold up. WMD was the “grave and gathering threat”. It was the cornerstone of the case for war both in the congress(which authorized force) and in the presentations to the electorate. The case for war does not stand without it, at least not for a large enough majority for it to be considered a legimitate exercise of the will of the people.

Every analysis I’ve done has followed a decision making process similar to the scientific method. Start with as few assumptions as possible. Upon acquisition of new evidence, question those assumptions. Revise your theory as you go. Any decision-making process which is used on a matter as important as war, especially aggressive war, has got to be rigorous. I’ve tried it with a large number of starting assumptions and with every starting point I chose at some point one of those facts that I itemized earlier popped up. In general it was the “Inspectors followed the leads from the intel and found bupkis”. That one just kept jumping up and smashing the decision-making process in the head. It tears at the core assumption of “something is there”. Another especially problematic fact was the known animosity between Saddam and Osama. Saddam had actively tried to wipe out the Al Qaeda(Zarqawi) camps we knew about in Iraq(northern Iraq) but the no-fly zones stopped him.

I haven’t been able to find a starting set of assumptions which could withstand analytical synthesis with the confirmed facts and still come out to “immediate war is the only way.”

Enjoy,
Steven

Couldn’t agree more. My sentence

would have been better had it read

It does seem to me that the methods of the commercial marketplace, i.e. “as long as it sells, baby, use it,” have been brought to government to its detriment.

Whence the leaking of clasified, yet faulty, alarmist intel?

The Senate Select Committee’s Report on pre-war WMD Intelligence(PDF). It was published in mid '04 and points the finger directly at “the intelligence community”. The National Intelligence Estimate '02 specifically. None of this addresses the Office of Special Plans however. It also fails to explain why the NIE '02 was treated as gospel truth even after the inspectors were able to show that at least portions of it were clearly wrong.

Enjoy,
Steven

I was looking at the various NIE’s that were used to support the war as well. Much of whats listed on the internet though is the unclassified portions. Unfortunately, especially with the NIE you listed, much of it remains classified. At least I can’t seem to find any of the classified parts listed on the internet. From the unclassified parts I’ve found (I can cite them if anyone is interested…not very interesting though) I also don’t see why they were treated as gospel truth. BTW, I can’t read your link right now…I don’t have a PDF viewer where I am. When I get home early next week I’ll take a look. If you are up to it, I would appreciate if you could list some of the relevant sections here in the thread.

I’ve been completely unable to find anything substantial supporting WHY Bush et al thought the data they have was correct in light of conflicting data coming in from the UN…or even to find the meat of what that data was. Mostly just hints and inuendo wrapped in ‘its classified’. I spent about an hour last night (granted, not an exhaustive search by any means) going through whats available and kept running up against statements that what I was reading was only the unclassified portion, the rest was classified. In light of this I’ll have to backpedal on what I promised to Abe…I can’t find anything compelling that hasn’t already been shown (which I admit isn’t much) to support WHY Bush et al thought their data was more solid than what was coming out of the UN inspectors on the ground. Consider this a retraction of my earlier statements and a serious rethinking of my position on this issue.

I still think they are valid, I still think that Bush and the administration had SOME evidence they thought was solid…but I have to admit I’m much less sure than I was now that I’ve personally dug into what I could find. I’m also much more sympathetic to the position that Bush lied about the whole thing…I can much better understand why folks are so convinced this was the case.

-XT

OnTheIssues.org has these excerpts from the report. These are verbaitm transcriptions of some sections of the report. The report, like everything produced by the Govt, is public domain, so I am going to quote extensively.

The full report is 30 pages and some of it is redacted.

Enjoy,
Steven

Thank you. I mean it.

Do you now think there should be further consequences? Or, at the very least, a complete investigation into the case for war as was presented?

Welcome to my world of two years ago. The existance of the OSP and the involvement of exiles like Chalabi pushed me over the edge into thinking the evidence cherry-picking and refusal to see anything but what they wanted to see was deliberate.

Enjoy,
Steven

xtisme, you are a mensch.

Hmmmm. Yellow Pages or Dex Online, maybe have to Google for it…“fatted calf, local, discount…”

Considering a fair number of our elected leaders were all oh so willing will get the ball rolling on an impeachment movement when the President of the United States made misleading statements about something as trivial as his personal sex life, I’d like to believe that the consequences for making misleading statements that led to war would be proportionately more serious.

Unfortunately, I know that ain’t likely gonna happen in my lifetime.

I am very impressed xtisme, and would hope to be as strong as you, were I in a similar position. I regret using such a snarky tone earlier in this thread, and I regret having such pessimism about, well, people these days.

xt’s a good sort. He just thinks that some of the folk around here fly off the handle into the deep end rhetoric-wise.

I’m still gonna pulverize him as soon as I get Total War though.

Well, at least you guys didn’t torture me TOO much. :slight_smile: I have to admit that I thought the Bush Lied camp was more rhetoric based than it turns out to be. And I’m personally embarrassed I never looked more closely into the actual evidence that was available. I was looking at the NIE’s MUCH more superficially.

I’m appearly most stuborn (or more gullable, or perhaps stupider…not sure at this point) than you are.

I think not, baby puppy. :slight_smile: My obvious embarrassment over this will not mean I’m not going to destroy your armies and sow salt in your fields…

-XT

Is that for guys who can’t deal with Civ III?

Any person you care to name will do. But this to recourse to legalisms is a petty tactic that more than anything confirms the truth of the basic charge. Secondly it reflects ill on those who attempt it.

Lastly there is a full rejoinder in legalism and I have it, however I’m not prepared to entertain the tactic further.

Both PatriotX and I have both said that we believe rational ignorance is completely understandable. I KNOW what I went through pre-war to dig out and evaluate the evidence. To analyze the case for war with the additional evidence coming from new sources daily was exhausting. At one point I damn near said “Fuckit! I’ll just let them do whatever they’re going to do and vote against every single incumbent in the next election. This actual ‘trying to get to the bottom of it’ stuff is exhausting.”

Or you’ve got less free time on your hands to read dry intelligence reports from about eight different agencies over a period of five or more years. Like I said, I don’t fault anyone for not doing what I did. It was tough and it took a lot of time and energy that I would have rather spent in many other, more enjoyable, ways. But I felt that the issue of a possible aggressive war was important enough to justify the legwork.

About the only people I feel animosity towards are the ones which say “Well, good for you. Your knee-jerk America-hating ass lucked into a situation where the US was actually wrong about something. Bet you wank off over it each night.” And yes, there are actually people who say crap like that. That opposition to the war and the Administration must have been based on partisanship or America-hating assholery. They’re pretty tiresome.

Enjoy,
Steven

I don’t think it was necessary to pour over every scrap of pre-war data to get a suspicion that the Bush Administration’s case was not on the up-and-up. For instance, when the “Coalition of the Willing” was being assembled, it wasn’t hard to ask oneself the question, “If the Administration really had solid proof that Saddam has WMDs, why don’t they share it with the nation’s allies – especially France and Germany – and convince them to get on board the bandwagon?”

There was a lot of stuff pre-war that didn’t pass the smell test, but the Bush Administration was pushing for an invasion anyway. That behavior should have raised warning flags in people’s minds…

I’ve got to agree with rjung on this one. Although I was somewhat like you, in the sense that I spent an inordinate amount of time pouring over all sorts of minutea – all part of the swinging lifestyle of a middle-aged, twice divorced man – I don’t think it was necessary for everyone else to do the same. The information, in abridged form, was always out there. Yes, it wasn’t readily available through the mainstream press – so much for the “liberal media” epithet – but just about anyone with an internet connection and a basic distrust for authority had the means to get the information.

Having said that, I do think this whole affair also showed just how incredibly easy it is to manipulate a whole nation – and just how disgusting the practise is. Like you, Mtgman, I’ve been called all sorts of names for not lining up with the official stand. Ironically enough, America had always been my bright and shining light while growing up, the nation – and people – I admired most. Not any more. I realize now that I’d become victim to the same generalizations I criticize in others. And while I am far from an “America-hater,” I see you now as I always should have. Namely, a nation with good, bad and a mixture of the two…not the impossible Nirvana I’d made you out to be. Obviously I can’t blame such faulty thinking on anyone but myself, I do think the Bush Cabal represents some of the worst you have to offer. So much so that I have to keep reminding myself that they are not representative of either, the America I made up, or the America I lived in for so many years.

The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. I wish you all the best in getting back there as soon as possible.


Xtime, nunca es tarde si la dicha es buena.

My apologies if I’ve been overly curt as of late. But as someone who truly gives a shit about your country – and my son’s – I am simply fed-up with what I’m seeing…and more importantly the willful blindness of those that refuse to see what is rather well documented. Thus my “lying eyes” comment to you upthread.

Now, I don’t expect for a minute for you to share in any number of progressive ideas that make me the “pinko commie” that I am in the eyes of many, however, I do expect you to leave partisanship behind in the interest of patriotism. And in order to so, I don’t think I need to tell you what needs to be done.

Get craking then.

Un saludo afectuoso,

~Javier.

Perhaps.
However, there’s is the background odor that exudes from politics in general. This masks more than some suppose and definitely makes it hard to distinguish one foulness from another.