# Plede of Allegiance is Unconstitutional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 26, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083 "2002-06-26T18:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/1 "2002-06-26T18:45:14Z")
A federal appeals court has ruled the Pledge cannot be said in public schools because it is a violation of the separation of church and state. [http://580wdbo.com/common/ap/2002/06/26/D7KD0H0G4.html](http://580wdbo.com/common/ap/2002/06/26/D7KD0H0G4.html) I’m stunned. I’m not particularly religious, but the words “Under God” in the Pledge never bothered me. I guess the wave of patriotism after Sept 11 has finally died out. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/2 "2002-06-26T19:06:54Z")
It doesn’t matter that those words never bothered you–they’re still a state endorsement of a particular religious view As such, the pledge containing such a statement is unconstitutional. Actually, the pledge itself is unconstitutional even without those words, but at least the court, [as reported here](http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/062602_nw_pledge_of_allegiance.html), has taken one step in the right direction (that would be towards supporting the Constitution). ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/3 "2002-06-26T19:35:32Z")
**Monty** - I’m not disagreeing with anything you said, but I am curious about how the Pledge is unconstitutional even without “under God.” I think it’ll be interesting to see what SCOTUS does with this. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/4 "2002-06-26T19:41:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not particularly religious, but the words “Under God” in the Pledge never bothered me. I guess the wave of patriotism after Sept 11 has finally died out. What does patriotism have to do with saying the words “under God?” What does patriotism have to do with this ruling, or the Pledge of Allegiance, at all, in fact? I find it rather more patriotic to be against lock-step mindless repetition of loyalty oaths. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/5 "2002-06-26T20:10:13Z")
I’ve always felt uncomfortable with the Pledge, and have listened to a few commentaries about it on the radio (The Tom Jeff Hour, my fav!). There was a period in high school that I would simply stand quietly in the room, because a few of the students in my class subconsciously ostracized a foreign exchange student, simply because he substituted “God” with “Allah”. It was a completely unfortunate event, and even today, I get the shivers when I think someone feels compelled to recite it regardless of their personal or religious beliefs, simply because the ‘crowd will be suspicious’ if they don’t. Patriotism from the heart is one thing, but patriotism through coercion or even peer pressure is contradictory to what this country stands for. I applaud the Court’s decision. Tripler I may disagree with what you _don’t_ say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to not say it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/6 "2002-06-26T20:29:24Z")
SisterCoyote: Even without the words “under God” the Pledge still has the word “Pledge.” Some folks, believing in God type folks, feel that is also a religious concern. Others feel that, even without the words “under God” in the Pledge, the forced recitation of it is mere coercion towards a certain belief system. As such, unconstitutional. Please read again this comment from Tripler: > [@](#): > > Patriotism through coercion or even peer pressure is contradictory to what this country stands for. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/7 "2002-06-26T20:59:02Z")
Seems people have forgotten what the pledge is [really about](http://www.usflag.org/skeltons.pledge.html). ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/8 "2002-06-26T21:20:31Z")
MONTY – > [@](#): > > Some folks, believing in God type folks, feel that is also a religious concern. Other folks, believing in God type folks, do not agree, and the Pledge (without the “under God”) has never been held to be unconstitutional on the basis of religion. So when you say “the pledge itself is unconstitutional even without those words,” you would be, in a word, wrong. If anyone is interested in reading the actual opinion, the text of it is [here](http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/04485f8dcbd4e1ea882569520074e698?OpenView&Start=1&Count=100&Expand=1.1#1.1), _Newdow v. U.S. Congress_. You have to have Adobe Acrobat to read it. The opinion specifically states that it is considering the constitutionality of the phrase “under God.” It does not address the constitutionality of the pledge without that phrase. A little history: The Pledge of Allegiance was instituted by Act of Congress in 1942, but this initial version did not include the phrase “under God.” As early as 1943 (and even with the nation at war), the U.S. Supreme Court held that the government could not force students to recite it. “Under God” was added to the pledge in 1954 during the Red Scare, when there was widespread (if largely baseless, in retrospect) concern about the country being taken over by godless communists and atheists. In _Newdow_ the Ninth Circuit looked at the legislative history of that addition and concluded that, despite legislative avowals to the contrary, “under God” was added as a statement of religious belief. In making this decision, the Court looked at the language, context, and history of the enactment that added “under God” to the pledge. I think they made the correct decision. Most legal decisions allowing the mention of God by government enactment or in the context of government action (such as “In God We Trust” on money, or opening Congress with a prayer) are defended on the basis of ceremonialism or historical practice. It’s hard to make that argument for a phrase that’s only been included for less than 50 years and that was clearly added only to provide the imprimatur of god and/or godliness to a recitation mostly practiced by children. Without the phrase, is the pledge on its face unconstitutional on religious grounds? IMO, no. Certainly it has never been held to be by the courts. But I don’t see a strong argument that it is _not_ unconstitutional as long as “under God” is added. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/9 "2002-06-26T21:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeep’s Phoenix \* > \*\*Seems people have forgotten what the pledge is [really about](http://www.usflag.org/skeltons.pledge.html). \*\* :rolleyes: I’m sorry Jeep, but that story is aweful. Don’t get me wrong, the sentiments are well-meant, but it completely misses the mark. Sure, what is written on that link may be what the pledge was originally. It may even be what the pledge currently attempts to stand for. But the author of that completely glosses over the addition of “under God,” and in that, fails in his mission. “Under God” is a travesty of what this country is about, and what the pledge attempts to communicate. It is sad and ironic that the instrument of this communication has become the perfect antithesis of that message. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/10 "2002-06-26T21:29:47Z")
Constitution 1 God 0 🙂 Look folks, believe in who or what you want. Worship however it pleases you, with my whole hearted endorsement. But bloodly hell. What does god have to do with the United States of America? PEOPLE made this country… God DID NOT HAVE A SINGLE BLOODY THING TO DO WITH IT. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/11 "2002-06-26T21:36:34Z")
I suspect this thread will eventually be moved to Great Debates, but before that happens, I’d like to say, “Good post, Jodi. Damned good.” ---
**Author:** ![Nightsong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nightsong/32/3083_2.png) [@Nightsong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightsong)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/12 "2002-06-26T22:01:00Z")
I can see this sliding into GD or the BBQ Pit… But I for one am glad for this ruling. The _original_ Pledge of Allegiance I have no problems with: I am pledging my support to what the Flag represents, with no implications of religion. But with the phrase ‘under God’ tossed in, it comes across as a more of a prayer to me, a thanking to a diety, and gives the impression that the U.S. is implictly supporting a distinct religion. Now, what was this thing about separation of church and State, and no State mandated/supported religion? Now, if you personally want to say the pledge with the phrase ‘under God’ added, I’m not going to stop you, nor am I going to call the cops on ya. 🙂 But do not expect me to say those same words, nor agree with the sentiment I belive they add. * * * \<\< I’ll rise, but I won’t shine… \>\> ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/13 "2002-06-26T22:27:37Z")
**Monty** - Thanks for clarifying; like I said, I didn’t disagree with you. Honest. **Jodi** - Thanks for the clarification of Monty’s clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/14 "2002-06-26T22:29:20Z")
Good! Now the courts can set to work on the real important issues, like the constitutionality of “Ladie’s Nite”! And before _you_ say anything (you know who you are), Shut Up! 😛 * * * There is nothing “secret” or “special” about 1,000 Island Dressing. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/15 "2002-06-26T22:36:55Z")
Just wanted to add, what does God have to do with patrotism? If I want to be a good citizen of a secular state and support my fellow Americans and our democratic ideology I have to accept a particular religious bias being surreptitiously bundled with it like so much microsoft software, impossible to uninstall? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Harvey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@Max\_Harvey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Harvey)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/16 "2002-06-26T23:17:45Z")
Personally I don’t understand why anyone would support either “In God We Trust” or “One Nation Under God”, since they’re _blatant lies_. If there’s one thing we Americans cannot and will not agree on, ever, it’s this God fella. And if you thought the glurge from **Jeep’s Phoenix** was bad, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet. By this time next week I expect to receive approximately 16,000 emails howling about the “liberal establishment’s treasonous attacks on Almighty God”. Maybe I can set up some sort of auto-response with [this tasty little URL](http://www.whatdoyaknow.com/pledge-plot2.htm). > [@](#): > > In 1892, a socialist named Francis Bellamy created the Pledge of Allegiance for Youth’s Companion, a national family magazine for youth published in Boston…He was a Baptist minister and he lectured and preached on the virtues of socialism and **the evils of capitalism**. (emphasis added) From the same link: > [@](#): > > Perhaps, and this is meant with no disrespect to the brave men and women who have given their lives for all the flag represents, the time has come to see that this allegiance should be to the US constitution and not to a piece of cloth. Amen. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rhubarb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/59ef9b/32.png) [@Rhubarb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhubarb)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/17 "2002-06-26T23:19:43Z")
I applaud the court’s decision. I have long been uncomfortable with the added religious text. On those rare occasions when the pledge is recited, I simply leave out the “under god” part. There may exist a god or God, this god might even be Judeo-Christian in nature, but I sincerely doubt that any god worthy of our worship would consider itself an American :rolleyes: Headline on Weekly World News - "God forsakes America - Says God “Hey, I know when I’m not wanted. You don’t have to tell me twice. I think I’ll go support Canada now.” :wally ---
**Author:** ![Fibonacci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df788c/32.png) [@Fibonacci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fibonacci)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/18 "2002-06-27T00:18:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ivylass \* > \*\*A federal appeals court has ruled the Pledge cannot be said in public schools because it is a violation of the separation of church and state. > > [http://580wdbo.com/common/ap/2002/06/26/D7KD0H0G4.html](http://580wdbo.com/common/ap/2002/06/26/D7KD0H0G4.html) > > I’m stunned. I’m not particularly religious, but the words “Under God” in the Pledge never bothered me. I guess the wave of patriotism after Sept 11 has finally died out. \*\* :smack: Maybe this “God” we’re “under” is the same one that’s been rewarding all of them terrorists and suicide bombers with them 72 virgins in Paradise. If so, maybe it is patriotic to take it out of there until we can be sure just which God it is we’re pledging to. 😉 😃 ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/19 "2002-06-27T00:44:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Harvey \* > \*\*And if you thought the glurge from **Jeep’s Phoenix** was bad, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet. \*\* Ooo, that stung. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083/20 "2002-06-27T00:51:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*SisterCoyote: Even without the words “under God” the Pledge still has the word “Pledge.” Some folks, believing in God type folks, feel that is also a religious concern. Others feel that, even without the words “under God” in the Pledge, the forced recitation of it is mere coercion towards a certain belief system. As such, unconstitutional. Please read again this comment from Tripler: > \*\* But nobody is coerced into saying the Pledge of Allegiance; or shot not be. The Surpreme Court has already ruled on whether people can be coerced into it. I think the pledge is a reasonably stupid idea, but as long as nobody is forced to recite it, I don’t really care. And I spent my entire childhood NOT reciting it because I was a Jehovah’s Witness. Frankly, nobody cared or commented on whether I was saying it or not. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plede-of-allegiance-is-unconstitutional/116083.md?page=2)