# Pledge Case: Newdow is my hero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 25, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359 "2004-03-25T15:56:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/181 "2004-04-02T01:41:28Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Ah so ,\*\* Mr, Moto\*\*, you think that these people here give a _Chinaman’s chance in hell_ if the “ **under God** ” clause in the pledging of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America is discarted? > > Not so, Mr. Moto. These people have a larger agenda. These people don’t like the pledge itself or the attendant allegiances that are inherent within. These people are anti-culturists. People who reject and deny anything that is incorporated within their own culture. These people are mostly folk who have a sad, dark-seeded need to reject the society that they feel has rejected them. > > God bless them all, and I hope that they can re-intergrate themselves into the mainstream of the most benevolent society thus far known to man in our magnificent journey - the selfless culture of the American experience . Nice bait, though incorrect. I think if you asked around, most of the anti-UG people would be Jeffersonian in their outlook, especially towards the Constitution. That is hardly anti-cultural, unless by anti-cultural you mean anti-WASP. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/182 "2004-04-02T03:23:06Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Not so, Mr. Moto. These people have a larger agenda. These people don’t like the pledge itself or the attendant allegiances that are inherent within. These people are anti-culturists. People who reject and deny anything that is incorporated within their own culture. These people are mostly folk who have a sad, dark-seeded need to reject the society that they feel has rejected them. I had a long response typed, but fuck it. I need to go flip a switch I should have flipped months ago. _Heads to UserCP_ ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/183 "2004-04-02T08:04:12Z")
Methinks **Milum** forgot to fold his hat with the shiny side of the foil on the _outside_ again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/184 "2004-04-02T08:10:02Z")
Must be a bug in the SDMB. Everytime I see **Milum** ’s name, a bunch of random gibberish appears directly underneath. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/185 "2004-04-02T11:03:02Z")
Hi folks. Love this thread, but might need to dial down my participation in it for a few days. I’m off to Pittsburgh for my grandfather’s funeral. Please do not hijack this thread by offering sympathy. I’ll be typing up a lovely tribute to the man, and a description of Pennsylvania funeral fare, when I return. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/186 "2004-04-02T12:17:27Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > The key, active word, \*\* blalron\*\*, is not “religion”, \*\* Blalron\*\*, but rather “establishment”… Yeaaah buddy, the simple inclusion of “under God” will certainly establish a government religion. What nonsense! I’m well aware that those who, like you, either tacitly or overtly defend government approval and support of Christianity like to employ that fallacious and insipid argument, but it doesn’t wash. The key, active portion is not the word “establishment” but “ **respecting** an establishment of religion”; i.e, one doesn’t have to try to “establish” a religion (such as founding a church) to violate the Constitution, one only needs to act in such a manner that _shows deference_ to religion. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/187 "2004-04-02T16:52:48Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > God bless them all, and I hope that they can re-intergrate themselves into the mainstream of the most benevolent society thus far known to man in our magnificent journey - the **selfless** culture of the American experience . Emphasis added. Umm, yea. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/188 "2004-04-04T21:18:45Z")
Ahh, yes. The selfless culture of the American boob…lots of?em in philadelphia, yes… Only in America will a man ?ah so? another, followed by a deft ?chinaman?s chance?(is that anything like a ?paddy wagon? or ?jap move?? Probly? not, (you racist pig)i ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/189 "2004-04-04T22:41:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > “Atheist” is not even much of a category anyway. It just means people who have no belief in a deity. It’s not an organized group or anything. [It is now.](http://www.godlessamericans.org/) About time. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/190 "2004-04-04T22:42:19Z")
**jayjay** : > [@](#): > > I had a long response typed, but fuck it. I need to go flip a switch I should have flipped months ago. _Heads to UserCP_ [Moderator Hat ON] Hinting about who is on your ignore list is against the rules, jayjay. [Moderator Hat OFF] ?alaric?, ?what? ?are? ?you? ?talking? ?about?? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/191 "2004-04-04T22:47:15Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > [It is now.](http://www.godlessamericans.org/) > > About time. 😉 Yay, another group to call people names. Ooh, it seems “Freethinker” is an official group now, and you have to follow atheism to be one. Whoopdeedoo. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/192 "2004-04-04T23:03:33Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Yay, another group to call people names. No, a group to stand up for the rights of people who have been too long ignored and often considered second-class citizens and unworthy of being called _ **AMERICANS** _. But maybe that is a topic for another thread. Care to start one? Because I happen to agree with the OP, and [Newdow Is My Hero, too.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=247040) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/193 "2004-04-04T23:10:33Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > No, a group to stand up for the rights of people who have been too long ignored and often considered second-class citizens and unworthy of being called _ **AMERICANS** _. > > But maybe that is a topic for another thread. Care to start one? > > Because I happen to agree with the OP, and [Newdow Is My Hero, too.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=247040) What are you ranting about? It isn’t like people are preventing you from getting married, voting, being atheist, gathering in atheist groups, or doing anything else. You want to talk about second class citizens? There are plenty of REAL second class citizens in America’s past (and present). If you want to start a thread demonstrating that you are a “second class citizen,” you are more than welcome to. I doubt you’d have an easy time demonstrating that you are a “second class citizen” more than any other person, though. I happen to agree with the OP as well (I know you assume every person who is religious is a fundie Christian, but that’s forgiven), so I don’t see your point there. If you are worried about threadjacking, you should have thought of that before posting. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/194 "2004-04-04T23:33:01Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > What are you ranting about? It isn’t like people are preventing you from getting married, voting, being atheist, gathering in atheist groups, or doing anything else. You want to talk about second class citizens? There are plenty of REAL second class citizens in America’s past (and present). OK, you started this. How many blacks hold public office in the USA? Asians? Women? Gays? Atheists? Oh, yeah? Name one. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/195 "2004-04-04T23:41:30Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > OK, you started this. How many blacks hold public office in the USA? Asians? Women? Gays? > > Atheists? > > Oh, yeah? Name one. Oh yea? How many Pagans? I presume you mean “major” public office, since there are local atheist politicians, right? I don’t think that many people really give a flying fark if a candidate is an atheist or not. The only people I hear bringing it up are atheists when they lose. I can’t think of the last time a politician around here campaigned on an atheist platform. I can’t even think of the last time religion was even mentioned, since the 2000 presidential campaign. Or maybe most atheists are logical enough that they don’t vote along religious lines? Not being elected to major public office does not make you a second class citizen. It means that either there aren’t enough atheists to vote along religious lines, or not that many atheists run for office. No skin off my teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/196 "2004-04-05T00:02:27Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Oh yea? How many Pagans? > > I presume you mean “major” public office, since there are local atheist politicians, right? Maybe. Name one. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/197 "2004-04-05T00:09:48Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe. Name one. Shirley Dean? James Doyle? John Pucinelli? Sorry, I’m a replying to too many threads to keep researching, but is 3 enough to define your thing to “major” offices? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/198 "2004-04-05T00:48:31Z")
**Zagnuts,** I suggest we continue our hijack [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4720077#post4720077) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/199 "2004-04-05T00:57:56Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > **Zagnuts,** I suggest we continue our hijack [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4720077#post4720077) Thanks for the name calling, this should be funny. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359/200 "2004-04-05T02:38:47Z")
?alaric?, ?what? ?are? ?you? ?talking? ?about?? I swear I was hitting the ? key, but I got the ? key thereby garbling a poor WC Fields homage… The thrust was to object to ?ah so? and ?chinaman?s chance? as being, in the first instance condescending and in the second, straight up racist. Or maybe it?s vice versa, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-case-newdow-is-my-hero/236359.md?page=11)