# Pledge of Allegiance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357 "2003-08-29T03:03:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/21 "2003-08-29T11:54:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MetalDog \* > \*\*Regarding the religious issue - banning people from praying to their chosen diety in certain public places is not freedom. Christians /should/ be allowed to pray to their God aloud in football grounds, or schools if they want to. So should Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc. > > Banning the expression of beliefs in case it offends other beliefs is the theological equivalent of making everyone third class instead of making everyone first class. You can level up or down - restricting people’s rights to practice their faith when the practice harms no-one else is levelling down, in my opinion. > > If you can’t hear someone pray aloud without melting, or flying into a rage, or feeling ‘repressed’ - you’ve got problems. Most Christians, Muslims, Jews and Wiccans I know are perfectly capable of withstand the ‘test of faith’ involved in knowing not everyone believes the same thing they do! There is a clear and obvious /difference/ between people trying to force their religion on others and people just practising their faith. \*\* What if my personal faith involves punching people who pray in public? Are you going to deny me the oppurtunity to practice my faith? ---
**Author:** ![MetalDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@MetalDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MetalDog)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/22 "2003-08-29T12:24:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shalmanese \* > \*\*What if my personal faith involves punching people who pray in public? Are you going to deny me the oppurtunity to practice my faith? \*\* Which part of ‘When the practice harms no-one else’ did you have trouble following, oh, tolerant one? And to Richardb - I can understand teachers not being allowed to lead the children in prayer, but I don’t understand the lack of tolerance for individuals to express their faith, if that makes sense? I don’t understand the lack of tolerance for individuals expressing their lack of faith, either. So long as you’re not harranging people and telling them their idiots because they don’t think what you think - what’s the problem? It just seems like the worst kind of levelling to me - removing words from fiction books in case they offend people rankles me equally. If you’re studying a piece of fiction, you should study it as it’s meant to be. If they have shades of bigotry in them, that should be under discussion in the classroom as to why it’s there, what influences were in society at that time, why it’s not considered acceptable today - just changing or removing the word seems the poorest way of dealing with difficult content. It seems so strange that in what we consider civilised society, we’re no more tolerant of differences of opinion than we ever were. It seems that so many people want to silence any view not their own and when you get them in a pack about the only things left to say are so PC and colourless and drab that they couldn’t inspire anyone. I don’t even know if I’m making the sense I want to make here =) I just know I like the colour of differences and it’s sad to see everything painted white in case anyone gets the slightest bit challenged … ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/23 "2003-08-29T19:54:57Z")
The big problem I have with the Pledge is the fact that it directs your allegiance toward whoever happens to be in power at the time. There is no mention of the ideals the founders of our nation believed in. Instead the allegiance is to “the republic for which it stands”. So if a new Hitler came into power (I’d knock on wood but I’m afraid I’m a little late) all of the 8 year olds across the country are going to pledge their allegiance to the nation, and therefore to its leader. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/24 "2003-08-29T21:32:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I have to say, to an outsider it really does look like a bizarre thing. Are there any other (non-dictatorial) countries that have a similar practice? > > Also bizarre is the kneejerk “go and find somewhere else to live” reaction to a valid criticism of the OP’s country’s peculiar ritual. Good grief! I’m American, and I also find these aspects of our culture bizarre and worrisome. It has always been a mystery to me why a country so wealthy and powerful should also be so insecure. And as a side note, it’s not easy to move to another country legally, especially if you need to earn a living there. ---
**Author:** ![minlokwat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minlokwat/32/2844_2.png) [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/25 "2003-08-29T21:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*I have to say, to an outsider it really does look like a bizarre thing. Are there any other (non-dictatorial) countries that have a similar practice? > > \*\* Last year we had a teacher who was originally from Spain, had taught there and in France; had also taught in a private school in New York and then for a number of years in Boulder, Colorado. Ours was the first school that started the morning announcements with the pledge. Her reaction? She thought it was cute. She had never heard of students being asked to stand and recite a loyalty oath to the mother land and was happy to report that after two weeks she herself had memorized the whole thing. Side-comment-number-two-in-which-I-still-don’t-address-the-OP: September 11, 2001. We all know what happened. Schools here --in Maryland-- were let out early. September 12: All schools were closed. September 13, 2001. Students are asked to stand for the pledge. Every kid got up, recited it word for word (which they hardly ever do) and I could have sworn I saw a few eyes welling up. Make of this what you will. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/26 "2003-08-29T22:10:58Z")
I had a teacher in seventh grade who led the class in the pledge of allegience, but refused to plug in the “under god” part. Even then, I wondered how the heck he was able to keep from getting fired. Always liked that guy. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/27 "2003-08-30T00:50:05Z")
“I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty, equality, and justice for all.” Of course, no one was willing to consider equality for women and negros… “I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Could be those dirty immigrant foreigners are thinking of the flag of their original homeland as “my flag” though… “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty, equality, and justice for all.” Of course, we had to distinguish ourselves from those godless communists… “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty, equality, and justice for all.” I never bothered to make an issue of it while I was in school, I just replaced or omitted words as it suited me. By the time I got to an age where I would have pressed my rights if I had been confronted about it, they’d stopped having us say it. Even then I probably would have merely offered them a copy of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (319 U.S. 624, 1943). ---
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/28 "2003-08-30T01:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MetalDog \* > \*\*Regarding the religious issue - banning people from praying to their chosen diety in certain public places is not freedom. Christians /should/ be allowed to pray to their God aloud in football grounds, or schools if they want to. So should Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc. > > \*\* Christians _are_ allowed to pray to their God aloud in football stadiums, as are Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc. As individuals. What isn’t allowed is prayer led by a school or other official (such as a game announcer). Prayer in school is also allowed, if it’s done silently. Silently because it’s necessary to maintain certain standards of behavior in a classroom in order for learning to take place, and disruption is disruption no matter the content. ---
**Author:** ![hayleyavon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eb9ed0/32.png) [@hayleyavon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hayleyavon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/29 "2003-08-30T04:29:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minlokwat \* > \*\* > > September 11, 2001. We all know what happened. Schools here --in Maryland-- were let out early. > > September 12: All schools were closed. > > September 13, 2001. Students are asked to stand for the pledge. Every kid got up, recited it word for word (which they hardly ever do) and I could have sworn I saw a few eyes welling up. > > Make of this what you will. \*\* September 11: My school wasnt let out early, we harldy knew what happend. September 12: We went to school the next day and had a short “moment of silent meditation” for the lives lost the previous day. September 13: I didnt say the pledge…My eyes didnt well up. I, personally, dont think that September 11th really effected me as much as it did most people. Yeah, so thousands of innocent people died…Dont thousands of innocent die in warfare too? “Hey, they killed alot of our citizens! Lets go kill even more of theirs, only space it out, so that it doesnt look as bad…” Yeah thats how I see the War on Terrorism. Sure, we couldnt just sit back and do nothing, something had to be done…So for those “camel jocky” hating biggots, who have the stickers of camels and their riders being seen through a gun’s aiming sight…Youve got nothing to bitch about because your country just did the same thing. I just dont think that we handled the entire situation in the best way possible. And now we will be even MORE in debt because there is no way we can afford to rebuild Iraq. What is a country to do? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/30 "2003-08-30T05:47:27Z")
The government also has the responsibility not to intrude on the religious beliefs of teachers. You would not believe the hellfire and damnation sermons I had to sit through ten years _after_ state sponsored prayer was supposed to be banned. One preacher was a well-known televangelist of the time. He made my flesh crawl. Oh, yeah – the Pledge. I was in elementary school when “under God” was added. We stumbled around with it for two or three years before we finally remembered to add the phrase. Just a couple of days ago, I saw Lou Dobbs reciting part of the Pledge. He’s probably close to my age – and he _still_ got it wrong. He said, “One nation, indivisible, under God, with liberty and justice for all.” Now that I think of it, it seems that everything started to go downhill in schools when those words were added… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/31 "2003-08-30T05:53:22Z")
Moving this to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/32 "2003-08-30T06:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hayleyavon \* > For starters, the NAME of our country is an oxymoron…“United States of America”…Nothing about this nation is united. Except maybe a united hate for each other…not to mention other countries that conflict with what we say and do. To pledge my allegiance to something that, in retrospect, doesnt even exist, doesnt seem to be very…patriotic. A bit overwrought, I think. We haven’t had a civil war in well over a century, and the counter-culture divisions of the 1960’s have pretty well died down. I think we’re a pretty united country right now. And perfect unity is unhealthy in a republic. > [@](#): > > Secondly, “…One nation under God…” That should say enough…We are NOT in ANY WAY a nation under God. We have a Christian president. So what? The 10 Commandments were removed in Alabama (or just moved to a back room, out of sight), we cant say public prayers at football games, talk about God or religion in school to an extent…What next? Our country was formed on a religious base, with God in mind…Religion was the entire reason people came to the Americas…For FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Now we cant even have that. I understand the first ammendment says that we cant have God and State put together, but if our entire history and creation is based on religion, why would that ammendment be written? And what about our rights? Freedom of religion? Where did that go? Straight through the vandalized and smashed political window. Well, I certainly don’t think “under God” should ever have been added to the pledge. Freedom of religion is doing just fine, thanks very much to the separation of church and state. Americans of all religions or no religion are free to believe as their consciences dictate, to express their beliefs to others and seek converts, and to practice their religions so long as they don’t infringe on the rights of others when they do so. Freedom of religion and the separation of church and state are in no way conflicting positions, rather they are complementary. Some of the colonies were founded for religious reasons, some weren’t. And being founded for religious reasons didn’t always equal religious freedom; sometimes the result was just that different sets of people were repressed. By the time of the Revolution, it was increasingly recongized throughout the colonies that separation of church and state and freedom for all are complementary and desirable. From its beginning the _United States_ was established as a free country, not a Christian nation, with church and state separated and a secular government in which all citizens are equal regardless of their religious convictions. > [@](#): > > Lastly, “…with Liberty and Justice for all.” Utter crap. Complete and utter crap. Liberty? Justice? When? Where? How? For whom? The beautiful? The famous? The rich? The ones that can afford the good lawyers? The social ones who know the right people? The lucky ones that have the stars in their skies the day of the trial? What about the other ones? The people who are wrongfully accused? Killed for no reason. The innocent killed in warfare? The people shot because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time? The ones that work every day of their lives and STILL cant afford to feed and cloth themselves, or their children? They die. But maybe THAT is the definition of liberty and justice for all. Is the U.S. perfect? No. But I think it’s good country, even a great country. And the mark of a true patriot is to find out what your country’s flaws are and then work to correct them. > [@](#): > > So I dont say the pledge. And you don’t have to. One of the things I love about this country. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/33 "2003-08-30T06:57:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Prayer in school is also allowed, if it’s done silently. You can pray out loud in school: anytime that ANYONE is allowed to talk freely. You can get together with your friends and pray and pray out loud all you want. ---
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/34 "2003-08-30T07:16:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*You can pray out loud in school: anytime that ANYONE is allowed to talk freely. You can get together with your friends and pray and pray out loud all you want. \*\* Thank you for the correction, **Apos**. I was thinking of in- class time, but you’re absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/35 "2003-08-30T12:46:51Z")
Two minor points: It’s the United STATES, not united citizens, and they are united; a war was fought over this issue nearly a century and a half ago. The republic is NOT it’s temporary head-of-state; civilians do NOT have to take an oath of alligience to the president. That is a very important distinction (do soldiers take an oath of alligience to the president? do they have to take a new one after an election?) Third point, but not so minor: It took a TEACHER two weeks to memorize the pledge? It’s not that tricky. As a proud American [whose definition of ‘proud’ and of ‘American’ differs widely from the national standard], I really like the pledge (except for the ‘under God’ addition); it is a very good goal to work toward. But IGWT on the money really pisses me off. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/36 "2003-08-30T13:33:33Z")
A pretty nice job of discussing the laws of this land and how they apply, folks. **Hayley** , I’m proud to say the Pledge, myself – but that’s because I’ve lived through a fair number of years when various people were up in arms about one thing or another – and we survived, with our individual and collective freedoms intact. And it’s my choice to recite it – nobody can tell me I have to. Get a copy of the U.S. Supreme Court decision in _West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette_ (319 U.S. 624, from 1943) – it should be available online – and send it to your school board. **Samclem** – my copy of the Fourteenth Amendment does not have the phrase “over 18” anywhere in it. In fact, the only place age shows up in the Constitution is in the 26th, where is specifies that 18-year-olds and up can vote. **Hayley** ’s parents may have control over him (her?) as a person under legal majority – but the state nor any of its legal creations, the school included, does not have any right to violate his citizenship rights, merely because he is underage. ---
**Author:** ![Gastrointestinal\_Joseph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e274bd/32.png) [@Gastrointestinal\_Joseph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gastrointestinal_Joseph)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/37 "2003-08-30T13:41:41Z")
I think the pledge should read like this: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Straights of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all, and no homosexuality.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/38 "2003-08-30T13:53:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by j66 \* > \*\* (do soldiers take an oath of alligience to the president? do they have to take a new one after an election?) > \*\* I took[this oath](http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/Election2000/Issues2000/NationalSecurity/oath.htm) when I joined the Army, except the part about “So help me God” has been added since then. The added part of God seems to contradict the parenthetical words (or affirm) which are there specifically to allow those who object to taking an oath “under God” to take the oath. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/39 "2003-08-30T15:50:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hayleyavon \* > Disclaimer… > Due to the nature of the “United States” and the world at this time, I should probably say…I, in no way at all ever ever ever, would make an attempt to harm anyone, political or otherwise. I am NOT a terrorist, a traitor, or an antidisastablishmentarianist (to a certain extent maybe, but I would never attact the goverment in any way). Interesting info, but doesn’t really relate to the rest of your post. > [@](#): > > Now, to my point… > > Starting at the beginning of the school year, we have begun to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day in second block, to a tiny flag that stands proudly at 4 1/2 inches. Well, since you’re not reciting it, that should be “other students at my school…” > [@](#): > > For my very own reasons, I have started to deplict the words assembled to create this national pledge. What does “deplict” mean? I’m going to take a stab in the dark and guess that you mean either “reflect” or “analyze.” > [@](#): > > For starters, the NAME of our country is an oxymoron…“United States of America” Actually, it’s not an oxymoron. It’s an accurate description of both the form of federation and the manner in which said federation is governed. > [@](#): > > …Nothing about this nation is united. Except for: [ul][li]One national government.[/li][li]One authority for national elections.[/li][li]One authority for a national military.[/li][li]Nationally guaranteed rights.[/li][li]National courts, courts of appeal, and even a national supreme court.[/li][/ul] > [@](#): > > Except maybe a united hate for each other Or maybe not. Actually, I don’t see a united hate for each other in this country. I’ve been alive for more than a few years and I’ve noticed that our government–at all levels–seems to work using democratic principles. > [@](#): > > …not to mention other countries that conflict with what we say and do. Since those other countries are, by definition, not within the United States of America, whether they conflict with anything our government says or does is completely irrelevant to the assertion that the United States of America is not a united country. > [@](#): > > To pledge my allegiance to something that, in retrospect, doesnt even exist, doesnt seem to be very…patriotic. It is a fact that the United States of America does exist. > [@](#): > > Secondly, “…One nation under God…” That should say enough…We are NOT in ANY WAY a nation under God. This part I agree with. For one thing that national constitution provides for a separation of religion and government. > [@](#): > > We have a Christian president. So what? The 10 Commandments were removed in Alabama (or just moved to a back room, out of sight), we cant say public prayers at football games, talk about God or religion in school to an extent…What next? One particular depiction of the Decalogue was removed; mostly that removal having to do with the stated reasons the person who installed that depiction had for installing it. Another depiction of Moses on the same building remains and for good reason: it is not there to force someone’s religion onto the population at large as Moore’s stunt was. You can still pray in school and at football games. What’s not permitted is for an agent or representative of the state to lead such a thing. Feel free to pray to your heart’s content about anything at all during that game. You can talk about deity all you want in school, provided you’re not disrupting a class or representing the school administration while you’re about it. > [@](#): > > Our country was formed on a religious base, with God in mind Incorrect. > [@](#): > > …Religion was the entire reason people came to the Americas…For FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Incorrect. A good number of people were sent here as punishment for crime. A good number of people were forcibly brought here as slaves. A good number of people came to these shores so that they could establish a society in which everyone had to follow their version of religion. > [@](#): > > Now we cant even have that. That’s known as a good thing. > [@](#): > > I understand the first ammendment says that we cant have God and State put together, but if our entire history and creation is based on religion, why would that ammendment be written? That amendment is there to prevent a theistic government from violating anyone’s right to freedom of conscience. Your premise that our “entire history and creation is [sic] based on religion” is absolutely incorrect. > [@](#): > > And what about our rights? Your rights are protected. > [@](#): > > Freedom of religion? Where did that go? Straight through the vandalized and smashed political window. You still have freedom of religion in the United States of America. I just checked and there are almost 300 different churches in Austin, Texas. It’s quite unlikely that all 200+ of those churches are merely congregations of one particular faith. > [@](#): > > Lastly, “…with Liberty and Justice for all.” Utter crap. Complete and utter crap. Liberty? Justice? When? Where? How? For whom? The beautiful? The famous? The rich? The ones that can afford the good lawyers? The social ones who know the right people? The lucky ones that have the stars in their skies the day of the trial? What about the other ones? The people who are wrongfully accused? Killed for no reason. The innocent killed in warfare? The people shot because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time? The ones that work every day of their lives and STILL cant afford to feed and cloth themselves, or their children? They die. But maybe THAT is the definition of liberty and justice for all. You and I, among approximately 300 million other people, have liberty and justice. You are free to pursue your dreams in this country. If someone commits a crime against you, or some civil infraction, you have recourse in the courts. If you have a grievance against the government, you have recourse. If you are unable to feed and clothe your family, you have recourse in the form of welfare and other social assistance programs run by the government. > [@](#): > > So I dont say the pledge. Why say something I dont belive? Why should I say things I dont mean? Why should I lie? A governmental body, the Supreme Court, of that country you pretend doesn’t exist has already affirmed that you have the right to not say that pledge. > [@](#): > > Maybe we should ask the political leaders of the country the same question. I doubt they could answer with the truth. Got anything to support that assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/40 "2003-08-30T15:53:38Z")
I reenlisted more than once and each time I chose the affirmation option instead of the “So help me, God” option. When I had to testify in two courts-martial, I took the affirm option also. Evidently, in the national military, my freedom of religion was protected [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357.md?page=3)