# Pledge of Allegiance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357 "2003-08-29T03:03:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/41 "2003-08-30T16:08:16Z")
Thank you, kind sir. I really thought there was something about commanding officers and the commander in chief. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/42 "2003-08-30T16:28:45Z")
[Here is the Oath of Enlistment:](http://www.stayarmy.com/theoath.htm) > [@](#): > > I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD. The site has it in all caps. Please note that the last sentence in that quote is only used if one opts for the “solemnly swear” choice. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/43 "2003-08-30T17:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Religion was the entire reason people came to the Americas…For FREEDOM OF RELIGION. A few of them. A rather lot of them came for money, or simply adventure and a new life. Religious freedom is a plus, but remember that prior to the Revolution/Articles/Constitution, there was no freedom of religion as a widespread national ideal. Many of the colonies had established churches, and many towns were VERY intolerant of other faiths. The Puritans may have come for freedom to practice their religion, for instance, but they came for the freedom not only to escape a theocracy, but also to set up their own theocracy. It didn’t last, however, as the country was too large and too diverse to support such views. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/44 "2003-08-30T17:24:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gastrointestinal Joseph \* > \*\*…and no homosexuality." \*\* You’re kidding, right? Or are you just trying to bring an unrelated topic into the debate? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/45 "2003-08-30T18:24:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > Get a copy of the U.S. Supreme Court decision in _West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette_ (319 U.S. 624, from 1943) – it should be available online – and send it to your school board. [_West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette_ (1943)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=319&invol=624). An excerpt: > [@](#): > > National unity as an end which officials may foster by persuasion and example is not in question. The problem is whether under our Constitution compulsion as here employed is a permissible means for its achievement. > > Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought essential to their time and country have been waged by many good as well as by evil men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon but at other times and places the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a dynasty or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate methods to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to an ever-increasing severity. As governmental pressure toward unity becomes greater, so strife becomes more bitter as to whose unity it shall be. Probably no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard. > > It seems trite but necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority. > > The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. > > If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us. > We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control. > > The decision of this Court in Minersville School District v. Gobitis and the holdings of those few per curiam decisions which preceded and foreshadowed it are overruled, and the judgment enjoining enforcement of the West Virginia Regulation is affirmed. Also, come to think of it, pledging allegiance to a _flag_ seems kind of silly. If it were up to me, the pledge would probably be: > [@](#): > > I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which it establishes, one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. But I still wouldn’t _force_ anyone to say it. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/46 "2003-08-30T18:46:33Z")
making children pledge is BRAINWASHING. Kind of like religion. Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/47 "2003-08-30T18:48:48Z")
Apology on re-read: I didn’t mean a “few” since there were many. I should have said many or some. It was certainly not the pre-eminent reason for the majority, but it was an important reason, especially for the earliest and most well known. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/48 "2003-08-30T18:51:17Z")
MEB, I would agree about the flag; but I won’t quibble as long we have the right to burn it, on occasion, in protest. ‘The pricipals for which the flag stands is more important than the flag itself.’ ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/49 "2003-08-30T18:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > making children pledge is BRAINWASHING. Parents and society in general have to teach kids something. No matter what it is, it’s brainwashing in your broad sense. Heck, exposing a baby to particular sensory experiences condition its brain to interpret the world in an even more profound and lasting manner. > [@](#): > > Kind of like religion. Are you really suggesting that parents should not have the right to teach children their beliefs? Certainly it can go overboard into tyrrany, but that’s true for any belief. I’m far more concerned about parents that brainwash their kids into thinking they are worthless and unloved. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/50 "2003-08-30T19:33:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\*Is that why you have a monarchy? > > 😃 \*\* We have a monarchy under sufference, most of us would much prefer to be a Republic ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/51 "2003-08-30T19:39:26Z")
spogga: Got a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![richardb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/96bed5/32.png) [@richardb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richardb)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/52 "2003-08-30T23:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Parents and society in general have to teach kids something. No matter what it is, it’s brainwashing in your broad sense. Heck, exposing a baby to particular sensory experiences condition its brain to interpret the world in an even more profound and lasting manner. > > Are you really suggesting that parents should not have the right to teach children their beliefs? Certainly it can go overboard into tyrrany, but that’s true for any belief. I’m far more concerned about parents that brainwash their kids into thinking they are worthless and unloved. \*\* I don’t think anyone is suggesting that parents should not have the right to teach children their beliefs. I believe we are saying that that “parents” should not have the right teach MY CHILDREN their beliefs. That is, the government should not be brainwashing all our children. Leave religious teachings to the church and the home, where it is not inflicted upon others. Religion has no place in our schools. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/53 "2003-08-30T23:41:48Z")
Lessee…we pledged in elementary school until sixth grade…not in 7th and 8th, when I transferred to a parochial school and the flag was replaced by a crucifix on the wall 😉 then not at all in high school. Picture this–you’ve just walked or gotten off a long bus ride to school, or a school bus or parent-chauffered car if you’re some kind of suburban creampuff, not that I was ever jealous. You’re tired or really distracted by just having talked to friends or low blood sugar or seeing what the other girls are wearing. Your teacher turns wearily to the flag and claps her hand on her chest and starts reciting; you lurch to your feet and recite. If you’re like most kids, you’re not paying attention to the words at all, let alone analyzing them line by line. And there were some kids who stood up but didn’t say the words–most I knew weren’t American citizens, and the rest I figured were Quakers or Jehovah’s Witnesses or something. Nobody cared. Nobody did anything to them as far as I knew, although admittedly I was not in the bullying loop. I mean, when the British hear their national anthem, do you spend all of it thinking really hard about the Queen, and hoping that she does something glorious? Or is it just a routine? **MEBuckner** , thanks for that post–that’s a great explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/54 "2003-08-31T00:13:32Z")
Mehitabel: Whenever I hear the music to the UK’s national anthem, I have to stop myself from singing the lyrics to “My Country, 'tis of thee”! ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/55 "2003-08-31T04:18:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Mehitabel: Whenever I hear the music to the UK’s national anthem, I have to stop myself from singing the lyrics to “My Country, 'tis of thee”! \*\* …and doing a galliard! The song was used in the SCA dance classes to illustrate a galliard. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/56 "2003-08-31T06:09:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*spogga: Got a cite for that? \*\* No I don’t have a cite I just know it to be true. As a confirmed anti-royalist I consider that they are outdated, out of touch with the common man, spoilt, pampered beyond belief,a drain on our country, I could go on but to what end? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/57 "2003-08-31T09:36:34Z")
You just know it to be true? In other words: it’s your opinion, not a fact. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/58 "2003-08-31T09:52:28Z")
That’s right, my opinion and I know it to be true ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/59 "2003-08-31T10:02:08Z")
You could take a look at [www.monarchyout.members.easyspace.com](http://www.monarchyout.members.easyspace.com) There are umpteen links on the site which may interest you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357/60 "2003-08-31T10:09:50Z")
And you might want to post some proof of your assertion from a reputable source. FYI, the link you provided gives me this: > [@](#): > > Error 404: / is not found at this location [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pledge-of-allegiance/198357.md?page=4)