# Pleistocene Megafauna Rewilding **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005 "2012-06-23T01:21:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/41 "2012-06-25T03:37:10Z")
For those that don’t like wiki as a source: > **[Pleistocene overkill and the associational critique](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0305440386900269)** > > The “associational critique”, the claim there are insufficient associations between extinct Pleistocene mammalian genera and cultural materials to sup… > **[A requiem for North American overkill](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440302002054)** > > The argument that human hunters were responsible for the extinction of a wide variety of large Pleistocene mammals emerged in western Europe during th… A requiem for North American overkill Donald K. Grayson, , , David J. Meltzer Abstract _The argument that human hunters were responsible for the extinction of a wide variety of large Pleistocene mammals emerged in western Europe during the 1860s, alongside the recognition that people had coexisted with those mammals. Today, the overkill position is rejected for western Europe but lives on in Australia and North America. The survival of this hypothesis is due almost entirely to Paul Martin, the architect of the first detailed version of it. In North America, archaeologists and paleontologists whose work focuses on the late Pleistocene routinely reject Martin’s position for two prime reasons: there is virtually no evidence that supports it, and there is a remarkably broad set of evidence that strongly suggests that it is wrong. In response, Martin asserts that the overkill model predicts a lack of supporting evidence, thus turning the absence of empirical support into support for his beliefs. We suggest that this feature of the overkill position removes the hypothesis from the realm of science and places it squarely in the realm of faith. One may or may not believe in the overkill position, but one should not confuse it with a scientific hypothesis about the nature of the North American past._ This does not say that humans were not mostly or partly responsible, mind you. Colibri has pointed out that human changes to the biomes, such as setting fires, may also be a large factor. I see his point, altho we still have points of disagreement. Fine. His opinion is likely better than mine here. So- I am not going to argue whether it was MOSTLY human caused or MOSTLY climate caused here. Both sides have their supporters. No one supports “We ate them” anymore. But as that fairly recent _peer reviewed study_ done by two well respected scientists above pointed out- the Pleistocene Overkill position is _completely discredited._ Martin’s idea has no more scientifc merit than the Aquatic Ape idea does. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/42 "2012-06-25T07:43:59Z")
> [@T.Slothrop](#): > > I vote for letting them all loose in Canada. This being the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812, it is officially grudge year. They burned the White House fer chrissakes. I doubt they would even notice that there were dire wolves and cave bears wandering around eating citizens. They might notice the Mastodons. Dude, our Kentuckians burned most of Upper Canada between, um, London and Detroit. Get over losing the\* verdammt \*presidential palace (which we rebuilt even finer thanks to the Canucks burning it). ---
**Author:** ![caveman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caveman/32/7242_2.png) [@caveman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caveman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/43 "2012-06-25T20:06:22Z")
If we reintroduce glyptodon, Texans will need to invest in even bigger pickups in order to properly process them into gigantic roadkill. We’ll also require absolutely enormous bottles of Lone Star if we’re to make some of them into taxidermied [novelties](http://www.united-nations-of-beer.com/lone-star-beer.html#axzz1ypyz30OX). ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/44 "2012-06-25T20:45:42Z")
I think I understand the arguments against doing this. However, it would be just so damn cool that it should be done if we have the ability 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/45 "2012-06-29T01:19:52Z")
> [@supery00n](#): > > Would you be for, against, or indifferent either way or the other of reintroducing the extinct Pleistocene Megafauna into the wild in North America? > > Some background information: Prior to around 10,000 BC, North America had an even more diverse population of large mammals than Africa does today. Creatures such as the Woolly Mammoth, Mastodon, saber-toothed cat, American lion, short-faced bear, several species of camels and llama, dire wolf, glyptodon (giant armadillo), giant beaver, wild horse, American cheetah, giant condor, giant sloth, etc. roamed the plains, forests, and mountains of North America. At around 10,000 BC, almost all of these large mammals became extinct, leaving only the bison, musk ox, grizzly bear, and polar bear as the remaining (relatively) large mammals. It’s probably a feeling of sentimental nostalgia, but I really would like to live among these animals once again and experience what the ecology of the “original” America was like before all of these amazing creatures were wiped out. > > We have the technology to clone these animals, and reintroduce them, perhaps at first into national parks, and then release them into the wild. Would you be for or against this idea (which has been brought up quite a few times, and is going on a small-scale in Russia I believe with the mammoth alone)? > > Is it legal for a private organization or person(s) to do this? Would you be for importing African species similar to the American ones that went extinct (i.e. lion, elephant, cheetah, etc.), if cloning extinct animals is either illegal or has too many risks? If any of these extinct animals can be cloned I think they should be. I doubt it is possible with our existing scientific methods. I doubt it will ever be possible. The DNA from these animals has probably broken down too much. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/46 "2012-06-29T02:30:37Z")
I am in favor of cloning mastodons simply so I can ride a mastodon to a Mastodon show. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/47 "2012-06-29T03:34:29Z")
Everyone seems to be overlooking the potential of megafauna porn. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/48 "2012-06-29T03:53:15Z")
What, donkey shows aren’t good enough now? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/49 "2012-07-25T18:25:32Z")
> [@T.Slothrop](#): > > I vote for letting them all loose in Canada. This being the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812, it is officially grudge year. They burned the White House fer chrissakes. I doubt they would even notice that there were dire wolves and cave bears wandering around eating citizens. They might notice the Mastodons. We wouldn’t notice. I thought they had already done this. I must have been in the Bordeaux that night. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005/50 "2012-07-26T12:43:09Z")
I have read that the “climate change” was no more dramatic than the many previous climate swings the megafauna had survived. Is that not believed to be the case? Also, although I admit to being skeptical of the climate-change theory, the paper cited does not appear to argue that the _consensus_ has changed, although it does argue against the older “overkill” theory itself. The consensus may well have changed, of course; I’m just saying that that parted quoted in the post (didn’t read the links) does not address that…it _could_ be a novel hypothesis outside the mainstream, for all I know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pleistocene-megafauna-rewilding/626005.md?page=2)