I don’t think they beat him up. All that is shown is that they stick a rag in his mouth and tape his mouth shut (apparently so he can’t scream and get help) and tie his hands and feet together. His nose was left uncovered so he could breathe. Presumably they leave after that. Nowhere in the film is it mentioned that he had any type of marks indicative of him being beat up. It seems being left like that for the night was his only intended punishment.
Should Dawson and Downey have surmised that being left in that condition could result in death? Maybe. But 25 years for something that was intended to be a relatively minor punishment is a little rough, IMHO.
I’m not following you here. Downey was an accomplice in an act that involved sticking a rag in Santiago’s mouth. A rag that the Chief of Internal Medicine says he’s sure was poisoned and the prosecution is aware of a motive. The facts imply murder.
If it is to be believed that it was a Code Red with nothing as serious as death being the outcome, why do you think it matters if Downey got wind of the order directly from Kendrick or second-hand from Dawson? Either way he would “simply be executing a common, though illegal, training tactic.”
If they’re going to try Dawson for murder, they would have to try Downey too. It doesn’t matter if Dawson is the one with the bigger motive; they both engaged in the act of sticking a rag that was allegedly treated with poison in his mouth and tying him up (Downey is the one that actually stuffed the rag in his mouth). If the prosecution has a strong case against one, then they have it for the other, too. Kaffee had to get them both to agree to a plea.
But there are 2 key differences between Dawson and Downey’s case:
Dawson is the only one with a strong motive for murder.
Dawson is the only one of the two who heard Kendrick say don’t touch Santiago
If you are a jury member, a perfectly plausible explanation is:
Kendrick informed the platoon of Santiago’s letter and ordered them (excluding Downey, who wasn’t there due to his jeep breaking down) not to touch Santiago. When Downey finally got back to his barracks, Dawson pulled him aside and said, “Santiago is a rat. Kendrick wants us to give him a Code Red.” Dawson intentionally chooses Downey to help him because he’s the only member of the squad who did not hear Kendrick say don’t touch Santiago, and therefore he’s the only person he would be able to get to help him. In addition, since Dawson is Downey’s squad leader, Downey is highly likely to obey him. When Downey is not looking, Dawson puts some of this magic poison on the rag. Then Downey stuffed the rag in Santiago’s mouth, and Santiago died, which was Dawson’s goal all along. Downey, on the other hand, was just trying to give a Code Red.
If you’re a jury member, and this hypothetical chain of events is presented to you, could you honestly convict Downey as having been a conspirator to murder beyond a reasonable doubt? I don’t think so. Kaffee should’ve gotten Downey plea bargained down to next to nothing. No jail time, and maybe not even dishonorably discharged. And this should’ve happened BEFORE Jessup ever took the stand.
So, the prosecution shouldn’t charge Downey with murder because you just came up with a wild ass theory of how he might have been tricked into sticking a poisoned rag into someone’s mouth and didn’t feel or smell anything unusual on it? That’s quite a stretch there. The more likely scenario is that they’ll both be charged and Downey’s attorney can argue that he wasn’t aware that any poison was involved or that no poison was involved and there’s another reason Santiago died of acute lactic acidosis.
What’s really more plausible? That Downey, a Marine with no motive aside from a general distaste for snitches and a general desire to protect his squad leader, would MURDER a fellow Marine? Or that Dawson took advantage of Downey’s gullibility, obedience, and the fact that Downey didn’t hear Kendrick’s order not to touch Santiago in order to get Downey to aid him under the guise that they were committing a regular Code Red?
The forensic scientists that examined Santiago’s body couldn’t find traces of poison, and you’re expecting Downey to just from holding the rag?
Any competent lawyer (which Kaffee was) would’ve had that charge dropped or at least pled to next to nothing.
Another nitpick: Soaking a rag with some mystery poison that evaporates itself from the rag and the body? There can’t be many of those. Also, inhalation wouldn’t be a very good way to poison somebody like that.
Now, had they proven that Santiago had been injected, yes…I can see that. (Forensic Files is talking about succinylcholine right now. An agent that can paralyze and suffocate someone.)
I think it’d be funny if it turned out those two marines WERE guilty of murder, and Jessup ‘threw himself on a sword’ to save his marines.
Yes, but the USCMJ article 134 allows for a similar charge to the National Defence Act section 129 (Canada) - prejudice to the good order and discipline.
It’s like a catch-all - as my WO said, “if they can’t get you with anything elsem they’ll get you with that…”
Which, if convicted, results in discharge with disgrace.
Most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You’re on ten here, all the way up, all the way up … where can you go from there? … Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do? Put it up to eleven.
You’re not paying attention to the part of your post I quoted. Your contention was that the prosecution should have theorized that Downey stuck a rag soaked in poison into Santiago’s mouth yet not know that it was soaked in poison (I guess that’s why you called it “magic” poison) and only charge Dawson with murder. It’s so obvious that the prosecution would assume Downey is innocent of murder and that Dawson should be tried for murder, that it’s a plot hole. :rolleyes:
What? I’m guessing you meant to write something besides “just” or forgot to add a word, but I can’t figure out what it is. As I wrote earlier, The Chief of Internal Medicine at the Guantanamo Bay Naval hospital says he’s sure the rag was poisoned.
But I don’t see the relevance of bringing up that no poison was found. You are the one that theorized that one possibility is that poison was involved, but that Downey was clueless.
I realize that. I was responding to the phrase “conduct unbecoming” being used for enlisted men. Never have I have that term used for an enlisted person and if you click on the link I posted in post #9, a former JAG also considers the judge finding the defendants guilty of “Conduct Unbecoming A Marine” something that they got wrong with the movie.
Ack. Sorry for clarifying something that didn’t need clarifying.
FWIW - the play is also excellent. When I saw it, they had a revolving section of the stage to include all of Sorkin’s trademark “walk ‘n’ talk” scenes.
“The forensic scientists that examined Santiago’s body couldn’t find traces of poison, and you’re expecting Downey to tell just from holding the rag?”
The prosecution’s case is that the rag was poisoned, even though they can’t find traces of poison. This is all based on the doctor’s testimony. Fine. But if they can’t find traces of the poison on the rag (which is why I called it magic poison), why would we expect Downey to be able to identify that the rag was poisoned?
The prosecution may very well have started off charging both D&D with murder. But Kaffee should have headed Downey’s prosecution off immediately. And not with a 2 years plea bargain either. It’s simply impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Downey agreed to murder Santiago, when such an obvious alternative explanation is that he was just a pawn Dawson was using and believed he was simply executing a code red while Dawson was the one intending to commit murder with poison.
If an actor is killed in a scene by a real gun that was supposed to be a prop gun, and the attorney general can prove that the head prop guy had a motive and switched out the guns, are you going to automatically prosecute the actor who shot him, too? Even if he had no motive? No. You’d examine the possibility that he was in on it, but without any really good proof, you wouldn’t be able to convict him.
I hate analogies and that’s not a perfect one, but there ya go.
You are overly concerned with the charge of murder. Downey could be charged with ‘Unapproved Congress with a Spiritual Creature’, but that doesn’t mean he raped a unicorn.
Code red does not equal murder.
Downey admitted to following orders of Santiago to commit a ‘code red’.
Downey is not an object without thought and probably can’t be held to the same standards of a pistol.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Both of them participated in an act that led directly to the death of a fellow marine. The prosecution’s hypotheses about poison and motives aside, it was due to their actions that Santiago died.
In the end, Jessup implicates himself and Kendrick as well, but that doesn’t clear Dawson and Downey. “Following orders” is not a legitimate defense, at least it didn’t used to be.
But the point is that Downey WAS being accused of murder by way of poison. He is NOT being accused of a Code Red that went wrong. In the end, a Code Red that went wrong is what he is convicted of (when the murder rap is shown to be false) and all it leads to is a dishonorable discharge. But the critical plot hole here is that the prosecution NEVER had a sound case for murder by way of poison vs Downey. The only sound case they had against him was committing a Code Red, something Marines did at Gitmo did all the time. So if this was being pled prior to the trial, or after the admission that Downey had never heard Kendrick’s order not to touch Santiago, I’m sure Ross would’ve agreed to even LESS than a dishonorable discharge. And in fact, after cutting a deal with Downey that allowed him to stay in the Marines, Ross would’ve then put him on the stand as a prosecution witness for the murder case against Dawson. Downey would testify that he did not hear Kendrick’s order not to touch Santiago, and then was ordered by Dawson to give the Code Red. He would neither be able to confirm nor deny that Dawson put poison on the rag without his knowledge. His testimony would only strengthen the case against Dawson.
They needed somebody to blame for this death. Dawson was the obvious candidate. Downey’s inclusion only muddied the waters, and Caffee should’ve never let Downey get put on trial, since it was too easy to show he was not guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.
“The doctor’s report says that Santiago died of asphyxiation brought on by acute lactic acidosis, and that the nature of the acidosis strongly suggests poisoning.”
“Santiago died at one a.m. At three the doctor was unable to determine the cause of death, but two hours later he said it was poison.”
"KAFFE: The rag was tested for poison. The autopsy, lab report, even the initial E.R. and C.O.D. reports. They all say the same thing: Maybe, maybe not.
ROSS: The Chief of Internal Medicine at the Guantanamo Bay Naval hospital says he’s sure."
Yes, I’m expecting Downey to tell from carrying, holding and stuffing a rag in someone’s mouth if it was soaked in poison, whether it be liquid or powder form. There could have been some evaporation of a volatile liquid by the time the rag got to the lab or the rag was also soaking wet from all of the blood that came out of Santiago’s mouth and not all poisons can be found through lab testing. But you’re missing the main point: There’s no plot hole. It’s not some ridiculous stretch that the prosecution would try them both for murder as they both engaged in the act or that the defense wouldn’t come up with the theory you think is so obvious and get such a serious charge dropped because of it. A stretch of the imagination is what’s needed for a plot hole to exist. It is a bit of a stretch, IMHO, to believe that a Marine handled a rag with poison on it the way he did and didn’t see, smell or feel any of it.
Kaffee would have to convince the prosecution that Dawson was sure that after Downey inevitably finds out that he was tricked into killing someone, he would keep his mouth shut. Why would he be so confident of that? Along with Dawson taking that risk, Kaffee would then ask the prosecution to believe that he would screw his friend over like that rather than just ask him to help him snuff out a Marine that didn’t “follow the code” and was threatening to rat him out in exchange for getting a transfer. Remember, this is on top of asking them to believe a Marine doesn’t know when he’s handling a rag treated with poison!
The prosecution has no way of knowing if Downey doesn’t have a motive of his own. They do know that he admitted to sticking a rag they believe they have enough evidence was poisoned into Santiago’s mouth, taping his mouth shut and tying him up. Asking them to just let him off because they do know of a motive for Dawson is ridiculous.
“Following orders” wasn’t used as a defense. When Jessup admits that he ordered the code red it absolved Dawson and Downey of supposedly secretly conspiring alone to kill Santiago and instead implied that they were just performing a disciplinary action that wasn’t meant to result in death. They are cleared of murder charges and found guilty of something much less severe.
The prosecution is not supposed to prosecute unless they believe they can make a case beyond a reasonable doubt. The OP has posited a reason why this is impossible for Downey. So far, the OP is making more sense than his detractors.
