# Plot Hole: Original Sin? Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682 "2014-01-02T05:40:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/21 "2014-01-02T16:49:41Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > However, Genesis 3:22-23 clearly says they are banished LEST they eat of the tree of Immortality. That’s not quite the same thing as being punished for eating the first fruit. Also Death is not given as a punishment. Death is bestowed on man because he is just flesh. As Genesis 6 says a bit further on: “My spirit will not dwell in man for all eternity, because he is flesh, his days shall be 120.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/22 "2014-01-02T16:50:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. They just had to obey God. They didn’t. And he didn’t have to put the loaded gun on the table, leaving his kids home with a very untrustworthy babysitter, before going out for a jog. How percentage of the blame for what was almost sure to happen was his? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/23 "2014-01-02T16:53:08Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Again, you are just saying that it was wrong to disobey God. > They didn’t know that. Sure they did. God warned them some time before the snake talked to Eve. “Don’t eat from this tree, or bad stuff will happen.” * * * My question is, if it was dangerous or bad for us, why put the tree in the garden in the first place? As a test of our obedience? Why does an all knowing God need to test us? Or was it a teaching tool? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/24 "2014-01-02T16:57:18Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Sure they did. God warned them some time before the snake talked to Eve. “Don’t eat from this tree, or bad stuff will happen.” When he told them this, did they know right from wrong? Were they even capable of understanding what “bad stuff will happen” even means? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/25 "2014-01-02T17:00:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > None of this is accurately described as a plot hole. It’s vague or unhelpful instructions from Yahweh and details that just aren’t included in the story. You are right, it is what you get when you combine several stories and later people start taking out things they don’t like. You are left with a story that is full of holes, but not _plot_ holes. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/26 "2014-01-02T17:14:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When he told them this, did they know right from wrong? Were they even capable of understanding what “bad stuff will happen” even means? All I can assume is that God communicates with A&E, he would do so in ways that they can understand. (He’s supposed to be smart, or sumthin’, after all.) I don’t recall the story providing that level of detail. I liked the baby/small child analogy used above. You can tell a two year old not to stick stuff into an electrical outlet, or try to climb the Christmas tree. Most people don’t go into electrical theory with the child at this point, or the concept of “center of gravity”. They just expect to be obeyed. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/27 "2014-01-02T17:21:44Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Interesting. Was mankind’s biggest sin actually eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge? ne could argue that the greatest sin was man’s desire to be God-the thing that drove Faust to sell out to the devil. Well, Satan (the serpent) told Eve that eating of the fruit would make her like God. So that really is the fundamental sin even in the Genesis story. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/28 "2014-01-02T17:33:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A baby does’t know, on its own, not to crawl onto railroad tracks. But if the train hits it, it still dies. > > No plot hole. That is exactly the difference between the Jewish and the Christian takes on the story. In Hebrew school I learned that eating the fruit (not apple) was the explanation of why we die, why childbirth is painful, why men work, and why we hate snakes. No particular evil is imputed to Adam and Eve. It is a Just-So story. The Christian view is that this sin spread to all. For your example it is the difference in viewing the dead baby situation as a tragedy or thinking the baby deserved it for being evil and crawling on the tracks. No plot hole in the Jewish version, big plot hole in the Christian version (which isn’t actually in Genesis.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/29 "2014-01-02T17:35:57Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I liked the baby/small child analogy used above. You can tell a two year old not to stick stuff into an electrical outlet, or try to climb the Christmas tree. Most people don’t go into electrical theory with the child at this point, or the concept of “center of gravity”. They just expect to be obeyed. Yeah, but if you’ve ever had a one or two year old you know that you just don’t tell the kid to not stick his finger in the outlet, you put in childproof plugs. It is basically your fault if little kids get hurt in this way. So God should have created a fence while he was at it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/30 "2014-01-02T17:36:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > From what I have read, this is one of the biggest common misunderstandings of Genesis. (Besides the fact that it wasn’t an apple and wasn’t a snake.) I know that Genesis never specifies what kind of fruit, but I thought t was pretty clear on the whole serpent thing. What was it, if not a snake? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/31 "2014-01-02T17:38:23Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > All I can assume is that God communicates with A&E, he would do so in ways that they can understand. (He’s supposed to be smart, or sumthin’, after all.) I don’t recall the story providing that level of detail. > > I liked the baby/small child analogy used above. You can tell a two year old not to stick stuff into an electrical outlet, or try to climb the Christmas tree. Most people don’t go into electrical theory with the child at this point, or the concept of “center of gravity”. They just expect to be obeyed. And what happens when another adult says that it’s okay to stick stuff into the electrical socket? Does the first adult bear _any_ responsibility for childproofing the home and removing bad influences, and do you throw the kids out of the house because they didn’t understand that some adults lie? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/32 "2014-01-02T17:39:21Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I am not Catholic, but it’s my understanding that original sin doesn’t literally mean the first sin, it is the idea that humans are born in an inherently sinful state and require redemption to enter the kingdom of heaven. But why did God create us in this way? By retconning the Adam and Eve story to make it a choice, not an inherent human characteristic, the Christians dumped the responsibility on us and not on God. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/33 "2014-01-02T17:48:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I know that Genesis never specifies what kind of fruit, but I thought t was pretty clear on the whole serpent thing. What was it, if not a snake? There is a rich regional mythos built around [the Serpent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28Bible%29) ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/34 "2014-01-02T17:59:04Z")
The apple thing is christian and comes from latin “_malum_” which can both mean “apple” or “bad/evil” ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/35 "2014-01-02T18:04:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what happens when another adult says that it’s okay to stick stuff into the electrical socket? I don’t know if Satan had had his falling out with God yet, or not. This also brings to question “why does God allow Satan to continue to exist?”. > [@](#): > > Does the first adult bear _any_ responsibility for childproofing the home and removing bad influences, and do you throw the kids out of the house because they didn’t understand that some adults lie? IMO: Yes to the first, No to the second. I already questioned that bible “wisdom” earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/36 "2014-01-02T18:07:51Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I don’t know if Satan had had his falling out with God yet, or not. This also brings to question “why does God allow Satan to continue to exist?”. I was talking about the serpent, not Satan. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/37 "2014-01-02T18:15:27Z")
> [@For You](#): > > There is a rich regional mythos built around [the Serpent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28Bible%29) Some cultures in the region had the serpent as a mythical giver of knowledge, c.f. the priestess with snakes or the Asclepios sign. It is not too strange that the myths of another people in the region, that believed in different god(s), would have contained in their myths something along the lines of “don’t listen to (those of) the serpent, they are lies.” Just like it says not to follow the worship of the golden calf. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/38 "2014-01-02T18:18:02Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Some cultures in the region had the serpent as a mythical giver of knowledge, c.f. the priestess with snakes or the Asclepios sign. > It is not too strange that the myths of another people in the region, that believed in different god(s), would have contained in their myths something along the lines of “don’t listen to (those of) the serpent, they are lies.” > Just like it says not to follow the worship of the golden calf. Mooby does alright by me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/39 "2014-01-02T18:41:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Yeah, but if you’ve ever had a one or two year old you know that you just don’t tell the kid to not stick his finger in the outlet, you put in childproof plugs. It is basically your fault if little kids get hurt in this way. > > So God should have created a fence while he was at it. Indeed, he puts a big freaking angel with a flaming sword to protect the barn after the horse left. The more I look at the story, the more I think that Eve was framed. The only way for me to accept the tale is to think that god was solving the curious situation\*\* that he already knew was coming\*\*, sooner or later the kids had to fend on their own, better to make a set up that would instill in them the ultimate guilt trip and prevent eternal questions of the fairness of being cast off paradise, because I do think that just as it was the case in the iron and bronze ages, it is a heck lot more complicated to explain properly to teens why they need to make it on their own. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/40 "2014-01-02T18:42:51Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > … I see the story as purely allegorical. Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents a point at which we are able to make moral decisions and, thus, are burdened with the consequences of our moral choices. Indeed, it takes centuries of human development and condenses it into a day or two. > [@](#): > > The death of which God speaks is the idea of spiritual death, whereas the serpent is refering to bodily death, and hence the whole idea of eventual salvation for eternal life. Sorry, not seeing that at all. It is not even obvious that Adam and Eve were spiritual beings, unlike the humans who were created in chapter one (“out of nothing … in god’s likeness and image”). If nothing else, eating of the Tree was the opposite of spiritual death. Oh, and the OT is decidedly mute on the topic of redemption/salvation, that appears to be a wholly christian invention. > [@](#): > > This also explains why it would have been bad for man also to have eaten from the tree of life. At this point, we have the ability to make moral decisions, but we have not yet reached the point in our development to have the wisdom to make those decisions. This is nonsensical. There is absolutely no moral imperative associated with the tree of life. Perhaps you should avoid explaining theology, your explanations do not seem to work. > [@](#): > > … We make bad decisions, we see pains and difficulty, and we interpretted them as the wrath of God. > > This is because our ability to make moral decisions stems from seeing a connection between our choices and the consequences of those choices. It is a good moral choice if we like the results, and a bad moral one if we don’t like the results … Holy crap, is that how you view morality? Sounds dreadfully subjective to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682.md?page=3)