# Plot Hole: Original Sin? Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682 "2014-01-02T05:40:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/81 "2014-01-17T20:18:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And another authority figure told her that it wasn’t true. Having no experience with lies and liars, would she even know how to handle two people telling her two different things…especially after she _didn’t_ die after eating the fruit? To someone not used to nuance in language this could only convince her that the serpent was the only to listen to. Once again, you’re stuck with Daddy leaving the loaded gun on the table, and letting devious Uncle Stan babysit the kids. And do you know what the _really_ fucked up part of all this is? > \*Dear Old Daddy KNEW what was going to happen, KNEW that the serpent was more than capable of conning those poor innocents, and KNEW how it would all go down. > And his response to his own evil manipulations, for which he has full responsibility? > > “Now look what you made me do!”\* It is clear in the text that God, in this part of the text anyway, doen’t know what humans will do. The motive for turfing them out of Eden isn’t to punish them for breach of his moral code, but because he’s afraid of what they might do - specifically, that given their track-record with the tree of knowledge, they might take the fruit of the tree of life also. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/82 "2014-01-17T20:51:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is clear in the text that God, in this part of the text anyway, doen’t know what humans will do. > > The motive for turfing them out of Eden isn’t to punish them for breach of his moral code, but because he’s afraid of what they might do - specifically, that given their track-record with the tree of knowledge, they might take the fruit of the tree of life also. If I were afraid of what my kids might do with a gun, I would think long and hard about where I would store if I had to leave the house…especially if evil Uncle Stan was going to be in the same house as the kids. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/83 "2014-01-17T20:56:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If I were afraid of what my kids might do with a gun, I would think long and hard about where I would store if I had to leave the house…especially if evil Uncle Stan was going to be in the same house as the kids. More to the point, God’s not afraid that they will hurt themselves, he’s apparently afraid they will prove to be competition for him! The analogy isn’t to kids with a gun, it is more like kids with a computer. Dad’s afraid the kids will hack his codes and take over. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/84 "2014-01-17T20:59:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > More to the point, God’s not afraid that they will hurt themselves, he’s apparently afraid they will prove to be competition for him! > > The analogy isn’t to kids with a gun, it is more like kids with a computer. Dad’s afraid the kids will hack his codes and take over. Makes you wonder-what kind of father would be afraid that his kids will turn out to be his equal? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/85 "2014-01-17T21:03:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Makes you wonder-what kind of father would be afraid that his kids will turn out to be his equal? Indeed, I always get the impression that parents want their children to be an improvement on the template. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/86 "2014-01-17T21:10:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Makes you wonder-what kind of father would be afraid that his kids will turn out to be his equal? Way I read the text, the original notion of the diety in this story - before Rabinnical commentators (let alone Christians) started to retcon it - was intended as a giant ‘just so’ story, in which God comes across as neither omnipotent nor omniscient, and indeed, rather insecure and unpleasant. He’s most anxious that humans _not_ develop conciousness - that is, the ability to understand good and evil. His anxiety apparently isn’t for the good of humans, but for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/87 "2014-01-17T21:10:35Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Indeed, I always get the impression that parents want their children to be an improvement on the template. So I guess it’s down to two possibilities: 1. God is an irresponsible idiot, or 2. God is a sadistic bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/88 "2014-01-17T21:13:14Z")
That assumes the relation between god and humans is like that between parents and children. He’s our creator all right in the text, but he’s not necessarily like unto our parents. Maybe it is more like how we would react if we discovered our household appliances were gaining in conciousness on us. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/89 "2014-01-17T21:29:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Way I read the text, the original notion of the diety in this story - before Rabinnical commentators (let alone Christians) started to retcon it - was intended as a giant ‘just so’ story, in which God comes across as neither omnipotent nor omniscient, and indeed, rather insecure and unpleasant. He’s most anxious that humans _not_ develop conciousness - that is, the ability to understand good and evil. His anxiety apparently isn’t for the good of humans, but for himself. God pretty much states the same agenda in the follow-up just-so story about why folks speak so many languages after the Flood left just Noah and his family. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/90 "2014-01-17T21:52:22Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > God pretty much states the same agenda in the follow-up just-so story about why folks speak so many languages after the Flood left just Noah and his family. Very true. For fun, here’s the translation: > [@](#): > > 11 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar\*\* and settled there. > > 3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.” > > 5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” > > 8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth. According to the notes, “Babel” sounds like “confused” in Hebrew. Can a Hebrew speaker confirm? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/91 "2014-01-18T00:47:21Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I can’t quite tell whether this is serendipitous (or merely whimsical) bad spelling, or a rather clever and learnèd joke. 🙂 For my part, I have it in my head that it is spelled “gnosh” and always have to remind myself of the correct spelling. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/92 "2014-01-18T21:45:57Z")
The Master has addressed the question of whether the fruit was an apple: [Was the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden an apple? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2682/was-the-forbidden-fruit-in-the-garden-of-eden-an-apple) Answer: the text doesn’t say, there’s been lots of speculation. He also addresses the “plot hole” you’re discussing: > [@](#): > > A related question: what’s meant by the “knowledge of good and evil”? Take your pick: > •Ethical discrimination, knowing right from wrong. One problem with this interpretation: if Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong before eating the fruit, how would they know disobedience was wrong? > •Knowledge of sex. The first thing Adam and Eve do after their snack is realize they’re naked. > •Knowledge, period. In this view, “good and evil” is an encompassing bookend phrase, like “A to Z.” Having tasted of the tree, mankind wants to know everything. The Hebrew is more literally “good and bad” rather than “good and evil,” and is generally (by scholars) taken to imply the third bullet. There are three reasons that it’s unreasonable to take “knowledge of good and evil” as meaning “capacity for moral discernment.” The first is the topic here: the prohibition is meaningless if humans don’t already have that capacity. The second is why would God be opposed to humans having a moral sense? And the third is that it is clear from Genesis 3:3 that the woman knows the meaning of disobedience (i.e., is aware of that obedience is good and disobedience is evil.) The better interpretation is that “good and bad” simply means “everything.” This happens in language (and in ancient Hebrew) fairly often, stating the two extremes to imply everything in between, like “A to Z” or “soup to nuts” or “up and down.” They do not, of course, become omniscient after eating, but they do seem to have increased intellect: the first thing that happens is that their eyes are opened and they see they are naked. The only other appearance of the phrase “good and bad” in the Hebrew bible occurs in Deuteronomy 1:39: “… your children who do not yet know good from bad…” The context certainly implies that not knowing good from bad means not to understand anything, the context does NOT imply “having no moral sense,” but “not even knowing to keep their fingers out of the electric socket.” ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/93 "2014-01-24T01:16:51Z")
> [@For You](#): > > [SIZE=“1”]So, now we have the dragon, which tells Eve that Jehovallah is a lying bastard (true enough), that the fruit of that tree will not in fact kill her, it will teach her stuff. She gnoshes down on the fruit, finding it to be tasty and the dragon to be correct. AFAICT, There is no moral lesson to be had here, other than that it is ok for the deity to fib. > notwithstanding)? God didn’t lie. He never said anything about the taste. Also, He didn’t say that the fruit would kill her. He only said 'in that day, thou shalt surely die". ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/94 "2014-01-24T05:41:08Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > God didn’t lie. He never said anything about the taste. Also, He didn’t say that the fruit would kill her. He only said 'in that day, thou shalt surely die". In that day, she didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2014, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/95 "2014-01-25T08:50:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So I guess it’s down to two possibilities: > > 1. God is an irresponsible idiot, or > 2. God is a sadistic bastard. 1. God is incomprehensible. I think it’s a valid criticism that Christians have attempted to co-opt an old pagan story, and the results are not entirely successful. The idea that a being capable of creating an entire universe with a thought would be the least bit impressed (let alone threatened) by anything people can do is almost comical. The Tower of Babel story should probably be more like… MEN: We are big shots because we have built this **MIGHTY** tower. _Chest thumping ensues._ GOD: _(squinting at a marble_) Wow! They’re really excited about something… can’t quite make out what it is, though… _deep sigh_… better make sure they’re not doing anything stupid again. … except then you’d complain that God has poor eyesight and wonder how he can breathe in outer space. Let’s suppose that some intelligent being has created the universe. If we have spent thousands of years trying to figure out the universe and aren’t quite there yet, then it stands to reason that we should be utterly incapable of understanding a being intelligent enough to create it out of nothing; and even our best efforts to describe the indescribable must necessarily fall short. We don’t keep studying the story of the Fall of Man because it’s perfect but because it helps us talk about one of the elemental questions of what it means to be human: why are people drawn to things that are blatantly self-destructive? (Cigarette? Well, I don’t know - what’s in it? Um, let me see… poison, poison, poison… _more_ poison… poison, poison, poison. Yeah, I’ve got to try that!) Of course, there are many possible answers to that question (including “there’s no real point to anything that happens - life’s a bitch, and then you die”); but the Christian answer is that God gives us free will, and sometimes we abuse it. The theory is that if we do good when we could choose to do evil, then the good we do is even better for being voluntary. I mean, there’d be nothing particularly heroic about firefighters rushing into burning buildings to save people if they were **compelled** to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/96 "2014-01-25T13:23:44Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > 1. God is incomprehensible. So why are you talking as if you did comprehend any of it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/97 "2014-01-25T15:12:39Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So why are you talking as if you did comprehend any of it? It’s that “God is incomprehensible…to _you_” undercurrent that runs through almost every thread that touches on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/98 "2014-01-25T15:34:37Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > I mean, there’d be nothing particularly heroic about firefighters rushing into burning buildings to save people if they were **compelled** to do so. And there’s nothing good about letting innocent men, women and children burn to death if said firefighters don’t do their job. What this says is that some humans are here to be tested(the firefighters, for instance)…but that others are mere props to be used and discarded(the people being burned to death). Remember Job? In that story, his family was a discardable prop-they had no say in what happened to them, no lessons to learn, no path to choose. They were “Red Shirts”. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/99 "2014-01-30T02:38:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s that “God is incomprehensible…to _you_” undercurrent that runs through almost every thread that touches on this subject. Sorry - I didn’t mean to get preachy on you. I don’t claim that it _must_ be so or that I can understand God (assuming he exists) better than you. I only claim that one _might_ conclude other than that the universe is run by a malevolent and/or incompetent god and this is the best way I’ve heard it explained. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682/100 "2014-01-30T02:49:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And there’s nothing good about letting innocent men, women and children burn to death if said firefighters don’t do their job. What this says is that some humans are here to be tested(the firefighters, for instance)…but that others are mere props to be used and discarded(the people being burned to death). Remember Job? In that story, his family was a discardable prop-they had no say in what happened to them, no lessons to learn, no path to choose. They were “Red Shirts”. Yeah, that bothers me too: Job was tested… … and they all\* lived happily ever after. - unless they were killed in Act One But maybe that’s just because we human beings can only focus on one story at a time. Maybe to God, the world is a great web of interwoven story lines, each with its own carefully spun narrative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-hole-original-sin-huh/677682.md?page=6)