# Plot Holes in World War II **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463 "2012-03-22T02:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/101 "2012-03-23T21:28:30Z")
WTF was it with the whole Italians invade Ethiopia subplot? How did that contribute to the story at all? I mean, it was great to show the valiant Ethiopian fighters throwing spears at fighter planes, but after that the Italians just smash the place and it all ends with kind of a dull thump. If it had set up something meaningful further down the line, it would have been one thing, but as it was, it was a useless waste of celluloid. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/102 "2012-03-23T21:31:18Z")
And those photos of supposed “victims” of the US’s nuclear weapons? You can see the numbered props in the background. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/103 "2012-03-23T21:37:38Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > America should have had bigger tanks too, with lazers. Yes, indeed. The idea that the Americans would know that the evil (but cash-strapped) Nazis had these kick-ass uberpanzers that would blow the shit out of any Sherman that crossed their sights, and just shrug their shoulders and go “Meh. We’ve got plenty more tanks where they came from, plenty more farmboys too”… yeah, right. Americans always have to have the biggest and the best. Look at those B17s next to the Luftwaffe’s piddly little bombers and tell me why the Americans wouldn’t have built a 500-ton land battleship. It’s not like they didn’t have the resources, the way the story gets told. Maybe not lasers - just a honkin’ big naval gun. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/104 "2012-03-23T21:39:50Z")
Stanley Kubrick tried his hand at a sequel about 20 years later, kind of like how Rankin Bass did “Return of The King” as an unofficial followup to Ralph Bakshy’s “Fellowship of the Ring.” Kubrick’s no Rankin Bass, though. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/105 "2012-03-23T21:48:10Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > … \*Useless bit of trivia: Besides salary demands from stars like Vick Morrow, the increased cost of the switch to color was also a reason for the end of the show. I hinted at this in post 85, but you’re absolutely right. I’m glad I’m not the only one to listen to the cinematographer’s DVD commentary. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/106 "2012-03-23T21:54:54Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > That, IMO, was partly down to this desperate need they had to get the Americans into the war with Germany after all. They’d painted themselves into a corner over this American isolationism they’d written in, so the only way they could get the fancy US hardware they’d decided to give the good guys into the European theatre - where it could face off against all those “cool Nazi” :rolleyes: panzers and planes - was to get _Hitler_ to declare war on _America_. But we already had that happening. In Episode 1.08, “The Arsenal of Democracy,” the USA was openly helping Germany’s enemies; then in Episode 1.11 “Battle of the Atlantic” you actually had the USA and Germany shooting at each other. It just isn’t a really big stretch to start a war over that. It would have made a lot more sense for the writers to just have Germany actually start a war; present some kind of military necessity stemming from the Atlantic convoy battles to openly declare war. Basically the same thing worked in Episode 1.07, “The Quisling.” I’m not suggesting repeating the first series’ way of doing it but why not at least connect the dots? Or if an alliance with Japan is necessary tp start things up, just figure out a way to wrap up the Pacific thing in a few episodes so we can get back the the main plot. You can come up with a hundred ways to write in American involvement that don’t involve starting a completely different and unconnected plot, one that in this case doesn’t even have a super hot Danaerys Targaeryn to at least make it good eye candy. ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/107 "2012-03-23T22:19:05Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Did they actually think people would buy _boarding parties_ in the 20th Century? The very idea that a modern naval commander would order “Away all boarders!” is insane. _USS Pillsbury_? Nice product placement, guys. Real subtle. They did a trial run earlier on with the _Altmark_, and since it seemed to get a good audience reaction, they tried it again. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/108 "2012-03-23T23:57:28Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > WTF was it with the whole Italians invade Ethiopia subplot? How did that contribute to the story at all? I mean, it was great to show the valiant Ethiopian fighters throwing spears at fighter planes, but after that the Italians just smash the place and it all ends with kind of a dull thump. If it had set up something meaningful further down the line, it would have been one thing, but as it was, it was a useless waste of celluloid. That was an early episode and they hadn’t really figured out yet where they were going with the series. It’s like how Spain and Manchuria and Czechoslovakia were all supposed to be major stories and they all ended up getting dropped. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/109 "2012-03-23T23:59:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But we already had that happening. In Episode 1.08, “The Arsenal of Democracy,” the USA was openly helping Germany’s enemies; then in Episode 1.11 “Battle of the Atlantic” you actually had the USA and Germany shooting at each other. It just isn’t a really big stretch to start a war over that. > > It would have made a lot more sense for the writers to just have Germany actually start a war; present some kind of military necessity stemming from the Atlantic convoy battles to openly declare war. Basically the same thing worked in Episode 1.07, “The Quisling.” I’m not suggesting repeating the first series’ way of doing it but why not at least connect the dots? Or if an alliance with Japan is necessary tp start things up, just figure out a way to wrap up the Pacific thing in a few episodes so we can get back the the main plot. > > You can come up with a hundred ways to write in American involvement that don’t involve starting a completely different and unconnected plot, one that in this case doesn’t even have a super hot Danaerys Targaeryn to at least make it good eye candy. You argue very skilfully - it’s just that I think you’re making a mistake if you assume these writers could write their way out of a bowl of alphabet soup. 😃 I wonder if you noticed a couple of things that were quite subtly handled (yeah, blind squirrel and all that)? The writers would have us believe that the P-51 didn’t really get legs until the _British_ put one of their own engines in it. Later (sorry, I don’t have your faithful recall of episode numbers and titles! 😛 ) we get those same _British_ thinking of putting a kick-ass gun in the Sherman - the conversion was called “Firefly”. I haven’t yet spotted the English name in the credits, but I wonder how he managed to slip that past the rest of the team. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/110 "2012-03-24T00:01:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That was an early episode and they hadn’t really figured out yet where they were going with the series. It’s like how Spain and Manchuria and Czechoslovakia were all supposed to be major stories and they all ended up getting dropped. Fact: a fair number of those panzers the Germans used later on were originally going to be Czech props. They couldn’t afford to waste the budget. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/111 "2012-03-24T00:11:27Z")
> [@phreesh](#): > > The whole Italian subplot was also a mess. Why not just keep them part of the Allies and simplify the whole thing the Hitler character being the primary lead with the Hirohito character the secondary lead? The Italian thing was superfluous. I think Mussolini was supposed to be on the Allied side. It’s the mustache rule. All the top villains had mustaches - Hitler, Tojo, Hirohito. When Chamberlain and Churchill were arguing, we were supposed to be on Churchill’s side. When France quit, who took over? Petain. When they started hinting that one of the Allies was going to turn on the other two, who was the bad guy? Stalin. When Patton and Montgomery were feuding, who was supposed to be the bad guy? Montgomery. Really, it’s pretty obvious. Whenever you’re watching an episode and they show a guy with a mustache, you know they want you to root for the other guy. My guess is Mussolini was supposed to be a good guy when the show first started. I think they were going to use Franco as the third bad guy. But my guess is Franco wanted too much money or something, so they dropped him and rewrote Mussolini’s part. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/112 "2012-03-24T00:30:12Z")
But what about Stalin? Throughout the majority of the plot, Uncle Joe is a Good Guy, and mustached. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/113 "2012-03-24T00:42:46Z")
Okay, so first off, our heroes got their asses kicked at [Hattin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_hattin), so BUMMER. What, do the producers want us to suffer? They have this big build-up the previous episode to the battle, and then all of a sudden, everyone’s dead or captured. I thought this show was called _Outremer_, not _Saladin_. Anyway, [Reynald](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynald_of_Ch%C3%A2tillon)dies in what is CLEARLY a Sweeps Week ploy for ratings. SO WEAK. He dies like a bitch, but [Gerard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_de_Ridefort)manages to slip away, scot-free, AGAIN? Puh-leaze, the writers are really trying my patience with that one. And then in the next episode we find out [Raymond of Tripoli](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_III_of_Tripoli)died too, off-screen, in a throwaway line. So after all that build-up they’re not gonna have him back this season for the aftermath of Hattin, they just quietly kill him off behind the scenes! Who writes this show? TRAINED MONKEYS? Okay, and what’s with this [Conrad of Montferrat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_of_Montferrat)character? This guy, who’s never been mentioned before until this season, just HAPPENS to be the brother of Sibylla’s dead husband, and just HAPPENS to be some great warrior, and he just HAPPENS to come [rescue Tyre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_of_Montferrat#Defence_of_Tyre)right when it needed rescuing. DEUX EX MACHINA. There, I said it! Lemme guess, next thing that happens is he romances Sibylla’s sister [Isabella](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Jerusalem)and becomes king of Jerusalem. MARTY STU ALERT! Oh, and I guess next season we’ll be getting a whole new cast of [Crusaders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade), none of them ever mentioned before but all of them relatives of canon characters, showing up to save the day and fight over the kingdom just so the producers can cast lots of pouty-lipped hotties as “hot new talent”. _blows raspberry_ So then [Guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of_Lusignan)is ransomed and like 5 minutes later he decides to lay seige to Acre on the advice of GERARD DE RIDEFORT. Ahhhh! Guy, I’m trying to LIKE you here! When has listening to Gerard ever worked? Why don’t you just kill him, hide the body, and never speak of it again? But I haven’t even gotten to the worst part yet! SIBYLLA DIES and both her daughters die too! This is inexcusable! [Sibylla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibylla_of_Jerusalem)is like the last character left from the first episode of the first season. I am outraged that they killed her off just – like – that. WEAK. If the show doesn’t pick up next episode, I’m SO out of here. I’m taking down all my Guy/Sibylla fanvids from Youtube and SOMEONE ELSE can run the kink meme, because \*Outremer \*has officially jumped the shark! ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/114 "2012-03-24T00:51:03Z")
That Skorzeny guy…why didn’t they just dress him in tights and call him “Captain Germany” or something? The stuff they had him doing fit better in a popcorn action movie than it did in something with a serious tone like they were going for. I thought my eyes would roll clear out of my head when he rescued the Italian leader from a mountaintop prison. They did play well off of each other, your classic action hero and comedy sidekick, but they felt like they had wandered in from some other, more lighthearted, movie. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/115 "2012-03-24T01:00:37Z")
It had some touching moments too though, like General Teddy Roosevelt Jr. leading one of the beach landings on D-Day. I mean it was a little sappy and clearly played to the heartstrings but it was so well done it worked. I mean they even had the most beloved [General on the American](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt,_Jr.#D-Day) side say it was the single most heroic action he had ever seen in combat. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/116 "2012-03-24T01:17:46Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > But what about Stalin? Throughout the majority of the plot, Uncle Joe is a Good Guy, and mustached. Foreshadowing! But seriously, I still don’t get why that singing family escaped over the Alps back into Nazi Germany. Were they really that bad at geography? At least they left the deaths of the nuns to the imagination, that would ahve been just a bit tasteless. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/117 "2012-03-24T01:28:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > My big problem with the series was **the entire Pacific War side story**. What the fuck did it even contribute to the series? I was waiting for that story to connect with the main plot, but it never did; we heard some vague dialogue about how the Nazis and the Japanese were allies but we never saw them BE allies. SHOW, DON’T TELL. We saw the Nazis and the Italians working together, so that made sense. But not once did Germany and Japan actually DO anything as allies, and nothing about the Pacific story arc really had much of an impact on the European arc (and why the fuck were the Soviets not at war with Japan? If it’s a world war, that makes no sense at all; they even said the two sides had fought before and hated each other. What the hell?) And because it was a sub-story they ran out of time and ended it with the Magic Weapon. It was worse than “The Stand.” > > Really, the Pacific War thing should have been a standalone story - you still have the bullshit ending, but I kind of liked other aspects of the plot, and you could fix the ending. They did show the Nazis and the Japanese [working together](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Caesar) every once in a while (I guess when the writers would remember “Oh, hey, they’re supposed to be allies, aren’t they?”) Which led to a pretty cool [“Hot Sub on Sub Action”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_9_February_1945) episode. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/118 "2012-03-24T01:46:55Z")
The “super-science weapons” stuff was often entertaining, but sometimes it did get a little :rolleyes: . The whole thing kind of went through a genre shift, starting off as a pretty straight-up war movie and then transforming into some kind of Tom Swift/Buck Rogers sci-fi story (invisible rays that let you detect enemy ships and aircraft; robot airplanes and rockets that fly through outer space and hit things hundreds of miles away; and of course the already mentioned _deus ex machina_ of the Super-Bombs that blow up whole cities). Some of that stuff got awfully far-fetched though. (An [aircraft carrier made out of _ice and sawdust_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk)? :dubious: ) The _really_ went crazy with the “super-science wonder weapons” stuff on the Axis side (making it sort of ironic when the Americans win the war by pulling the whole “Super-Bomb” thing out of nowhere). A [1500-_ton_ tank armed with a gun with a _ **31-inch barrel** _](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster)??? :eek: It’s pretty obvious at that point that you’ve just got a bunch of Hollywood “creative” types (with no real understanding of real-world physics and engineering) coming up with this stuff. The submarines that [carried](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_submarine_Surcouf_(N_N_3)) [airplanes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400_class_submarine) _were_ pretty cool, but I can’t help but think they’d be a bit impractical. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/119 "2012-03-24T02:16:54Z")
Far fetched? What about those odd, vacuum-tubed powered adding machines in season 6 (that’s the series about 1944, right?) that, by a process so badly explained that it seemed magical, somehow became the basis of a worldwide data and communications network\*. Talk about far fetched! \*This last bit was from _The WW2 Encyclopedia_, printed in the 70s, that took the original story and extrapolated the implications of _World War 2_ for the next 60-odd years. It’s not really canon (and out of print because of copyright claims by the heirs of the original producers), but it’s wonderful stuff and I recommend it to any _WW2_ fans (if they can get a copy of it.) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463/120 "2012-03-24T02:28:46Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The “super-science weapons” stuff was often entertaining, but sometimes it did get a little :rolleyes: . The whole thing kind of went through a genre shift, starting off as a pretty straight-up war movie and then transforming into some kind of Tom Swift/Buck Rogers sci-fi story (invisible rays that let you detect enemy ships and aircraft; robot airplanes and rockets that fly through outer space and hit things hundreds of miles away; and of course the already mentioned _deus ex machina_ of the Super-Bombs that blow up whole cities). > > Some of that stuff got awfully far-fetched though. (An [aircraft carrier made out of _ice and sawdust_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk)? :dubious: ) The _really_ went crazy with the “super-science wonder weapons” stuff on the Axis side (making it sort of ironic when the Americans win the war by pulling the whole “Super-Bomb” thing out of nowhere). A [1500-_ton_ tank armed with a gun with a _ **31-inch barrel** _](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster)??? :eek: It’s pretty obvious at that point that you’ve just got a bunch of Hollywood “creative” types (with no real understanding of real-world physics and engineering) coming up with this stuff. > > The submarines that [carried](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_submarine_Surcouf_(N_N_3)) [airplanes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400_class_submarine) _were_ pretty cool, but I can’t help but think they’d be a bit impractical. You want far fetched? How about those [special bombs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise) that skipped (!) over the water order to blow up German dams? The attack was like something out of a science fiction movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-holes-in-world-war-ii/616463.md?page=7)