# Plot to blow up 10 US airplanes over Atlantic - credible threat, or rumour-mongering? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2006, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144 "2006-08-10T12:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/101 "2006-08-11T18:04:07Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One] Because they are in office, luci. We can’t call Batman. [/QUOTE] Are we to assume that you accept as fact my assertion that they are demonstrated fuck-ups? But you insist that we should place our trust in them because they “are in office”? Under those circumstances, shouldn’t we move to elect representatives who offer more oversight? Representatives who will not take them at their word? Have we, then, your wholehearted support in our effort to sweep the Pubbies out of office, and assert more control over the Bushiviks? Do let us know, won’t you? Perhaps when you come back with that cite, that might be convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/102 "2006-08-11T18:25:20Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] There are any number of news stories on this. So far, none that I’ve seen has suggested _any_ significant input from the US. [/QUOTE] Apparently Blair told Bush about the plot only last sunday: [U.S. Government Knew Of Plot ‘For Days’](http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S=5268887&nav=QEMt). It stands to reason that, had we made any significant contribution to the investigation, we’d have known about it at that time. Perhaps the Brits and the Pakistanis played things a little closer to the chest this time because they got burned the last time the told the white house about a big operation: [Did US blow cover on Al Qaeda mole?](http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0809/dailyUpdate.html) Of course that was back in 2004, I’m sure the administration has learned that it’s really dumb to expose intelligence sources for political gain in the intervening years. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/103 "2006-08-11T18:32:13Z")
Yes, please. And a pony, if its not too much trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/104 "2006-08-11T19:23:37Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] [Scotland Yard says the plan was to blow up planes over US cities, including New York, Washington, Los Angeles, Miami, Boston and Chicago.](http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20097604-661,00.html) [/QUOTE] (Also posted in the other thread.) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/105 "2006-08-11T19:29:42Z")
Given that some folks are reporting that the British authorities [delayed raiding the terrorists](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060810/pl_afp/britainattacksairline_060810185330) for several days – to give the Bush Administration time to make anti-Democrat points for November – and that [five of the terrorist suspects are still at large,](http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-womain114847575aug11,0,2633052.story?coll=ny-worldnews-print) can I conclude that the Administration’s political manipulation have just made folks _less_ safe as a result? I mean, why didn’t the Brits bust them last week if the plot was already known? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/106 "2006-08-11T19:37:56Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] Given that some folks are reporting that the British authorities [delayed raiding the terrorists](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060810/pl_afp/britainattacksairline_060810185330) for several days – to give the Bush Administration time to make anti-Democrat points for November – and that [five of the terrorist suspects are still at large,](http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-womain114847575aug11,0,2633052.story?coll=ny-worldnews-print) can I conclude that the Administration’s political manipulation have just made folks _less_ safe as a result? I mean, why didn’t the Brits bust them last week if the plot was already known? [/QUOTE] The most recent news reports, which I find reasonably plausible, were that the UK authorities wanted to wait as long as possible before making arrests, to better the chances of identifying and making prosecutable cases against as many prinicpals and accomplices as possible. According to these sources, they were forced into action after several of the plotters were arrested by Pakistani authorities (mis-coordination? Doesn’t say) and a message was forwarded to one or more of the UK plotters to launch the operation ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/107 "2006-08-11T21:08:48Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] If you think spouting that will make people take you seriously, you’ve another think coming. [/QUOTE] They already do. I refer you to this thread for confirmation: [Worlds most hated country - U.S.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=383284) Of course, if you’re speaking of the UberAmerican Bushistas…thanx for making my point. ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/108 "2006-08-11T21:10:22Z")
It could be rumour-mongering We shall wait and see ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/109 "2006-08-11T21:18:26Z")
Re: IDF “proxy army”…have any doubts? Read on: [**Israel Asks U.S. to Ship Rockets With Wide Blast**](http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/nyt376.html) > [@](#): > > The debate over whether to ship Israel the missiles, which include the cluster munitions and use launchers that Israel has already received, comes as the Bush administration has been trying to win support for a draft United Nations resolution that calls for immediate cessation of “all attacks” by Hezbollah and of “offensive military operations” by Israel. > > Arab governments, under pressure to halt the rising number of civilian casualties in Lebanon, have criticized the measure for not calling for a withdrawal of Israeli troops from southern Lebanon. > > While Bush administration officials have criticized Israeli strikes that have caused civilian casualties, they have also backed the offensive against Hezbollah by rushing arms shipments to the region. Last month the administration approved a shipment of precision-guided munitions, which one senior official said this week included at least 25 of the 5,000-pound “bunker-buster” bombs. > > Israel has recently asked for another shipment of precision-guided munitions, which is likely to be approved, the senior official said. > > Last month, the advocacy group Human Rights Watch said its researchers had uncovered evidence that Israel had fired cluster munitions on July 19 at the Lebanese village of Bilda, which the group said had killed one civilian and wounded at least 12 others, including 7 children. The group said it had interviewed survivors of the attack, who described incoming artillery shells dispensing hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. Absolutely shameless. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/110 "2006-08-11T22:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] Well, if you are asking my personal viewpoint, no inconveniences whatsoever are warranted. You see, I am not a terrorist. Your minions of paranoia can search me all you want, profile me all you want, ban me from taking my business laptop computer all you want, but it is all a complete waste of time, because I.am.not.a.terrorist. [/QUOTE] So how is anyone to **know** that you’re not a terrorist? Because you don’t have “an Arab surname”? Because you have a Bush sticker on your SUV? What will you do when they come for you and there is no one left to speak out for you? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/111 "2006-08-11T23:00:57Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Yes, please. And a pony, if its not too much trouble. [/QUOTE] [Maybe Two Ponies:](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060811/ap_on_go_ot/terror_explosives_detection) > [@](#): > > While the British terror suspects were hatching their plot, the Bush administration was quietly seeking permission to divert $6 million that was supposed to be spent this year developing new homeland explosives detection technology. The Brits and Pakistanis move forward with police work in the war on terror. We stand around with our military stuck and getting shot at in Iraq, and work towards _ **not** _ securing our airways. That’s republican Leadership! On the plus side, [our President thinks he can bend steel with his bare hands](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/08/10/PH2006081001274.html). Who _needs_ Batman anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/112 "2006-08-11T23:03:23Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] They already do. I refer you to this thread for confirmation: [Worlds most hated country - U.S.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=383284) Of course, if you’re speaking of the UberAmerican Bushistas…thanx for making my point. [/QUOTE] For one thing, I’m not a “Bushista.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/113 "2006-08-11T23:10:55Z")
Back to the OP - its both. Yes, its a credible threat, no matter how inept the intended perpetrators prove to be. The bar is simply too low, there are too many ways to create havoc. The fact that the terrorists are willing to die in order to commit thier horror makes it damn near immune to defense. But the Bushiviks are in full cry, propaganda pumps on overdrive, doing thier level best to pump hysteria and fear into the national brain stem. They stretch the implications of this almost-attack to support their policy in Israel, Iraq and Iran. That they are English of Pakistani extraction seems unworthy of mention, wouldn’t want to embarass our very bestest buddy, Pakistan (which, as you know, stands in the very front rank of military dictatorships when it comes to promoting freedom and democracy…) There is a bright spot here. Recent reports indicate that the terrorists were turned in by a fellow Muslim in England. This is very encouraging. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/114 "2006-08-12T01:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > So how is anyone to know that you’re not a terrorist? If it isn’t enough that I said so, I can only point to my record of thirty years of flying commercial aviation and never once blowing up a plane. 🙂 > [@](#): > > What will you do when they come for you and there is no one left to speak out for you? Sing “Bad boys, bad boys”, of course. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/115 "2006-08-12T01:41:19Z")
> **[Client Challenge](https://www.seattlepi.com/national/1155AP_Terror_Explosives_Detection.html)** > [@](#): > > While the British terror suspects were hatching their plot, the Bush administration was quietly seeking permission to divert $6 million that was supposed to be spent this year developing new homeland explosives detection technology. > > Congressional leaders rejected the idea, the latest in a series of steps by the Homeland Security Department that has left lawmakers and some of the department’s own experts questioning the commitment to create better anti-terror technologies… Offered without comment, none being needed. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/116 "2006-08-12T01:42:57Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] For one thing, I’m not a “Bushista.” [/QUOTE] Well then, good for you and me – your condition might not be terminal. OTOH, if you can’t and/or refuse to see the harm your current administration has done to your country worldwide, allow me to suggest you join one of those cognitive dissonance programs that Mr. \*\*'luc \*\* has been so ardently promoting – hell’s bells, I’ve contributed and I’m far from being an American. Not that I wasn’t offered to become one after my long residency there; I just happen to like being a Spaniard. 'cause, ya know how much us Spaniards like tacos. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/117 "2006-08-12T01:51:21Z")
So, are the apprehended terrorists being tortured to extract information about anyone else in the plot that is still at large? If not, does that mean the “ticking bomb” scenario isn’t the airtight justification for torture it’s been trumpeted to be? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/118 "2006-08-12T01:52:06Z")
I’m a bit surprised at the news, **Red** , I guess I never expected the Spanish immigration. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/119 "2006-08-12T02:49:06Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] There is a bright spot here. Recent reports indicate that the terrorists were turned in by a fellow Muslim in England. This is very encouraging. [/QUOTE] Had this been in the US, the presence of an informer would probably have made getting a FISA wire tap warrant quite easy and probably a domestic one too. The bitch that the anti terrorism effort is being hampered by insisting on legal wiretaps is nonsense. For crimes, as this case illustrates, police work beats sending in the army most of the time. Especially if you send the army on a wild goose chase. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/120 "2006-08-12T05:01:18Z")
Our prime minister, John Howard, stated on TV that the liquid explosives were a new terrorist threat. He loves to put the Fear into people. These explosives are not new. There have been a couple of passanger flights I can think of attcked with liquid explosives over the last 20 years: in 1987 Korean flight 858 was brought down and in 1994 there was an explosion in Phillipine airlines flight 434. Fortunately Ramzi Youseff was caught in 1995 before he could carry out his plot to destroy 11 aircraft. And it is not as if it MEKP is some high-tech formulation that muslim extremist have been secretly developing. Also recall terrorists reported being caught in the 1990s with liquid explosives. Whatever the case, any efforts to prevent passangers taking liquid containers and similar articles on aircraft from now on is a good thing. I have always been more concerned about nerve gas hairspray or many other possible deadly liquid poisons that I won’t mention. [REF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_transatlantic_aircraft_plot) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144.md?page=7)