# Plot to blow up 10 US airplanes over Atlantic - credible threat, or rumour-mongering? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2006, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144 "2006-08-10T12:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/121 "2006-08-12T05:50:15Z")
Just a few words then I’m out of this debate. I will never in a million years understand the mentality of a person who sets out to murder thousands of innocent people who have done them no harm. I will never understand what it is that drives another human being to do such a terrible thing. I forget who wrote the following but it has a certain truth to it… “On a battlefield, for whatever purpose and using any means, men fight against_men_, not women and children . There is _some_honour in the former, but not the latter.” “Such crimes are on a vast scale, evil as war is, at the human level it usually stopped at what men call crime, the deliberate inflicting of harm upon innocents” ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/122 "2006-08-12T12:24:11Z")
Given that after the 7/7 incident, on 21/7/05 (UK date) another four with a similar profile found their materiel did not explode, that makes four in custody. Richard Reid, who I suspect bottled out, and another Pakistani guy who hid his shoe bomb, mean that there are six people who have been confined for over 12 months. Examining their contacts and asking a few polite questions would have provided quite a few people to watch - and a very good idea of the modus operandi to look for. Because they say that the raids were precipitated by something in Pakistan, means that they were not … or perhaps they were … but want the first layer of double-think. The timing might well be down to USA elections - more likely it is because we in the UK are in what is called ‘the silly season’, and it is handy to have something for the press to get their teeth into We in the UK know something about infiltrating terrorists, after a slow start with our 7/7 juveniles, it is highly likely that mosques and pubs (sic) are heaving with recently recruited informers. Let’s see, 6 x 4 = 24 The next round up will be about 96 ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/123 "2006-08-12T13:33:47Z")
This place has become conspiricy theorist central of late. So much for fighting ignorance. You can’t even have a real debate anymore, as every topic gets overrung by crazy internet conspiricy theorists. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/124 "2006-08-12T15:28:30Z")
Today the news reported the plot was found due to an English Muslim that heard of it. It and reported it.was known for months. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/125 "2006-08-13T01:48:50Z")
[US Apparently Pressed Brits to Make Arrests Early](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452/) > [@](#): > > A senior British official knowledgeable about the case said British police were planning to continue to run surveillance for at least another week to try to obtain more evidence, while American officials pressured them to arrest the suspects sooner. The official spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the case. > > In contrast to previous reports, the official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports. > > The source did say, however, that police believe one U.K.-based suspect was ready to conduct a “dry run.” British authorities had wanted to let him go forward with part of the plan, but the Americans balked. > > At the White House, a top aide to President Bush denied the account. > > “There was unprecedented cooperation and coordination between the U.S., the U.K. and Pakistani officials throughout the case,” said Frances Townsend, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism, “and we worked together to protect our citizens from harm while ensuring that we gathered as much info as possible to bring the plotters to justice. There was no disagreement between U.S. and U.K. officials.” > > Another U.S. official, however, acknowledges there was disagreement over timing. Think the Bushies might’ve just had an agenda to push, here in Lamont-is-soft-on-terror-and-so-are-the-Dems week? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/126 "2006-08-13T02:31:18Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Think the Bushies might’ve just had an agenda to push, here in Lamont-is-soft-on-terror-and-so-are-the-Dems week? [/QUOTE] They guys in Michigan who got arrested for buying a 1000 cell phones are now suspected of “[targeting the 5-mile long Mackinac Bridge](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060813/ap_on_re_us/phones_terror_charges_5)”, so the Bushies now have something **big** of their own to crow about. Unfortunately, the article doesn’t say if plotting to wreck the bridge is what they were actually arraigned for, or how a thousand cell phones can be used to do that. Are TracFones unusually _heavy_ or something? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/127 "2006-08-13T02:33:51Z")
Heck, that’s nothing, those guys in Miami were gonna blow up Chicago. Soon as they could buy some boots. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/128 "2006-08-13T02:56:42Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Offered without comment, none being needed. [/QUOTE] I have a comment, however unnecessary. It is shameful and pathetic that this President can simultaneously invest our national resources and attention in an unnecessary war and away from efforts to attack the actual perpetrators of 9/11, while simultaneously diverting money away from our efforts to stop the very real threats that exist to this country, and yet some still try to suggest that his leadership is good for national defense. It is pathetic that people can support the war in Iraq as some kind of deterrent to terrorist efforts, and then point to the emergence of an actual terrorist act as justification for that war. It is pathetic that those who would suggest that military means are superior to law enforcement methods as a means to combat terrorism may point to a terrorist act that was detected and stopped by traditional law enforcement methods as support for their military activity. I beg those who, in another thread, are bemoaning the loss of their party to make their voices heard. Stop those people who have absconded with your party from continuing to use it to run our country into the ground. Tell your family, friends and neighbors that enough is enough. Tell them that George W. Bush actually tried to weaken the very defenses we have been trying to develop to prevent this recent attempted terrorist act. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/129 "2006-08-13T03:02:27Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] They guys in Michigan who got arrested for buying a 1000 cell phones are now suspected of “[targeting the 5-mile long Mackinac Bridge](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060813/ap_on_re_us/phones_terror_charges_5)”, so the Bushies now have something **big** of their own to crow about. Unfortunately, the article doesn’t say if plotting to wreck the bridge is what they were actually arraigned for, or how a thousand cell phones can be used to do that. [/QUOTE] Just out of curiosity, and no offense meant to any Michiganders, but of what strategic importance is the Mackinac Bridge? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/130 "2006-08-13T03:25:29Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] [US Apparently Pressed Brits to Make Arrests Early](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452/) [/QUOTE] I missed this on the first read through: > [@](#): > > The British official said the Americans also argued over the timing of the arrest of suspected ringleader Rashid Rauf in Pakistan, warning that **if he was not taken into custody immediately, the U.S. would “render” him or pressure the Pakistani government to arrest him.** Seems to me that the generals on the ground got micromanaged by Washington politicians here. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/131 "2006-08-13T03:39:24Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] Well, if you are asking my personal viewpoint, no inconveniences whatsoever are warranted. You see, I am not a terrorist. Your minions of paranoia can search me all you want, profile me all you want, ban me from taking my business laptop computer all you want, but it is all a complete waste of time, because I.am.not.a.terrorist. [/QUOTE] Yo’ve got to be kidding! Don’t you realize that it’s not merely about you? So, you would not want any restrictions on what you could bring on an airplane? Do you not believe that there are people trying to kill us? Do you think 9/11 was a one time thing? Do you not think that these latest developments prove that we need to be vigilant and take steps to protect ourselves? I must not be understanding you. (I hope I’m not.) Does anyone hold these opinions above? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/132 "2006-08-13T04:43:38Z")
[Quote=Magellan01] I must not be understanding you. [/Quote] I’m pretty sure you’re not, and no, it’s not all about me. I guess I’m just wired in such a way that I’m simply not as as fearful about terrorists blowing up fake bottles of aftershave as most of the other folks around me seem to be. Don’t worry, though, when it comes time to get on a plane again, I’ll do everything the Security State orders me to do, like all the other good little sheep. Wouldn’t want to rock the boat, now, would I? Nanny knows best, and what Nanny says goes. Pay no attention to me, I’m just venting my exasperation a bit, because for some reason, I’m not sure why, I can’t shake this feeling that Nanny doesn’t always know as much as she claims to about things. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/133 "2006-08-13T04:47:39Z")
I fear friend **El Kabong** has received his own share of acoustic guitar blows to the head. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/134 "2006-08-13T04:52:35Z")
Oops. Wrong forum, I thought I was in the Pit. My apologies to **El Kabong** and the rest of our illustrious readership. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/135 "2006-08-13T05:14:22Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] I fear friend **El Kabong** has received his own share of acoustic guitar blows to the head. [/QUOTE] [But that’s essential to his character!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Kabong) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/136 "2006-08-13T05:17:50Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] I am suspicious when we suddenly start getting security alerts during the election season after nearly 2 years of NOTHING. I wouldn’t be surprised if we start seeing Bush’s poll numbers start going up based PURELY on a rapid-fire series of security alerts. We are about to get suckered again. [/QUOTE] LISA: Don’t you remember the story of “The Boy Who Cried Wolf?” BART: Sure . . . Boy cries, “Wolf!” . . . Has a lot of fun . . . I forget how it ends . . . ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/137 "2006-08-13T06:13:35Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] I’m pretty sure you’re not, and no, it’s not all about me. I guess I’m just wired in such a way that I’m simply not as as fearful about terrorists blowing up fake bottles of aftershave as most of the other folks around me seem to be. Don’t worry, though, when it comes time to get on a plane again, I’ll do everything the Security State orders me to do, like all the other good little sheep. Wouldn’t want to rock the boat, now, would I? Nanny knows best, and what Nanny says goes. Pay no attention to me, I’m just venting my exasperation a bit, because for some reason, I’m not sure why, I can’t shake this feeling that Nanny doesn’t always know as much as she claims to about things. [/QUOTE] So, just what would YOU propose. Take air travel for instance. Would you allow any changes that might encroach of our “freedoms”? Or would you serioulsy propose doing nothing, as I think you stated? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/138 "2006-08-13T06:36:29Z")
There aren’t any adequate defenses. A fully policed _Festung Amerika_, with a 1 to 6 police to citizen ratio and a total empowerment of any law enforcement official, at any time, on any basis…would not be enough. Such is the nature of determined terrorism, a man who is willing to die simply to hurt you is a formidable foe. Sacrificing rights for safety is no more likely to be effective than sacrificing a ram on the steps of the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/139 "2006-08-13T06:56:37Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] There aren’t any adequate defenses. A fully policed _Festung Amerika_, with a 1 to 6 police to citizen ratio and a total empowerment of any law enforcement official, at any time, on any basis…would not be enough. Such is the nature of determined terrorism, a man who is willing to die simply to hurt you is a formidable foe. Sacrificing rights for safety is no more likely to be effective than sacrificing a ram on the steps of the Senate. [/QUOTE] Okay, I’ll ask you the same thing. Again let’s just focus on air travel. Given 9/11 and the recent uncovered plots, what changes would you say that we make? What sacrifices would be reasonable? Is you answer “none”? ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144/140 "2006-08-13T07:23:03Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Do you not think that these latest developments prove that we need to be vigilant and take steps to protect ourselves? [/QUOTE] I’ll step up to this one. No, I don’t think we need to take steps because the steps were _already taken_. Law enforcement was all over these would-be Harbingers of Doom; as far as I can tell, the only reason arrests weren’t made sooner was because Scotland Yard wanted to give them more rope to hang themselves with. Need to be vigilant? We _are_ vigilant. The system worked. Bad guys were found, using _LEGAL_ surveillance and other already-legal police techniques, and they were arrested before they could even have a dry run. You keep asking what changes need to be made, as if this incident somehow demonstrates that the system is broken. But it doesn’t demonstrate any such thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-blow-up-10-us-airplanes-over-atlantic-credible-threat-or-rumour-mongering/368144.md?page=8)