# Plot to kidnap (MI Gov) Gretchen Whitmer **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 8, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506 "2020-10-08T16:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/201 "2020-10-20T23:40:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > People have one thing they hate Bush for: the Iraq war. Which was clearly him being biased towards bad intelligence in due to having a vendetta against Iraq for his dad. But that took a terrorist attack on US soil to happen. Everyone in the country became more okay with US military action after that point. Based on the fact that you typed the above paragraph and then moved on, I am pretty sure you’re right we’re not going to find common ground. I’m not sure which is more bananas to me – that you think that was the “one thing,” or that you think _even if it was the one thing_, the half a million to a million fucking human beings who were deleted from the world as a result aren’t _bad enough_ to compare to Trump transparently encouraging Q lunatics. We don’t exist on the same plane of morality. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/202 "2020-10-21T00:08:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > People have one thing they hate Bush for: the Iraq war. Which was clearly him being biased towards bad intelligence in due to having a vendetta against Iraq for his dad. Did anyone really believe that he actually thought they had WMD? I thought it was widely assumed he was using that as an phonied-up excuse, like the Bay of Tonkin incident. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/203 "2020-10-21T02:49:14Z")
No, actually EVERYONE thought he had WMD. Saddam even bragged he had them. The Brits, the Mossad, everyone said he had them. Even the UN thought so, there were thousands of tons missing. It wasnt until Blix got permission to investigate- and reported “nope, no WMDs I can find” that we found out Saddam didnt have much in the way of WMDs. But then GWB invaded anyway. So, Bushes _threat_ to invade unless Saddam let Blix in was totally justified. But then- he went ahead anyway. That was the problem. They did later find lots of old rusted out WMDs incidentally, hidden deep in the desert, more of a ecological threat that a military one. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/204 "2020-10-21T02:58:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Even the UN thought so, The UN thought so because Colin Powell lied to the UN on behalf of Bush. Lesson learned: do not trust the US. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/205 "2020-10-21T03:09:43Z")
No, all the Intelligence agencies, MI6, Mossad, etc all agreed. Saddam even said he had them. Blix thought there were WMDs. It wasnt until after Blixs inspection tour we knew otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/206 "2020-10-21T03:31:24Z")
The timeline was tight, but the key point is that the US ignored Blix. Powell spoke to the UN on February 5, 2003, accusing Iran of hiding wmd and refusing to allow access to the inspectors. On February 14, [Blix reported to the UN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War#Report_of_Hans_Blix_on_February_14): > [@](#): > > … questioned the interpretations of the satellite images put forward by Powell, and stated that alternate interpretations of the satellite images were credible. He also stated that the Iraqis have in fact never received early warning of the inspectors visiting any sites (an allegation made by Powell during his presentation). International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohammed ElBaradei also said that he did not believe the Iraqis have a nuclear weapons program, unlike what Powell had claimed.) So that’s when the US “knew otherwise”, and of course the US immediately recanted and called off the war? No, because as Powell later admitted, when he made the speech Bush had already decided on war. Powell’s job was to sell it to the UN, which he failed to do. Blix has also repeatedly stated that the US and the UK never disclosed to the inspectors the information that they were relying on to argue that Iraq was in breach and had wmd. The net result was that the US was saying “Trust us” as they set off a war in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/207 "2020-10-21T04:30:44Z")
And Obama ordered assassination via drone. Is he as bad as Trump now? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/208 "2020-10-21T04:34:32Z")
I’m with DrDeth on this one. At the time I thought (hoped?) that it was skillful diplomacy by Bush to get Blix access. He didn’t any right away but there was some things that, if you squinted really hard, might be Iraq trying to hide them. Even so Bush shouldn’t have invaded without solid proof. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/209 "2020-10-21T04:46:41Z")
That might be what you hoped, but it’s contradicted by Powell’s statement that the President had already decided by the time of Powell’s UN speech that the US was going to war. You were sold the same bill of goods as the UN. Of course, Powell’s statement that the President had already decided to go to war could be just another lie. Once you start lying, people start questioning your good faith. If it was all just a feint to get better access for the UN inspectors, going to war undercut it. As soon as the war started, Blix had to pull the inspectors. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/210 "2020-10-21T05:21:29Z")
^^ The alternative papers and magazines were disbelieving. It was assumed Jr was claiming any excuse to finish what his father started, no matter how spurious. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/211 "2020-10-21T12:56:11Z")
If you’re trying to make a good faith point or ask a good faith question, I can’t find it. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/212 "2020-11-01T01:25:39Z")
Whitmer kidnapping suspect, who wanted to kidnap Whitmer because of perceived over-response to CV-19, wants to be let out of jail because he now fears CV-19. If only his state had a governor who tried to implement effective measures to slow the spread of the virus… > **[Whitmer kidnap suspect wants out of jail. He's diabetic, and fears COVID-19](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/30/suspect-whitmer-kidnap-plot-jail-kaleb-franks/6085247002/)** > > A suspect in the plot to kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer says he's turned his life around, deserves to be free, and is asking the judge to reconsider bond. After three weeks in jail, one of the suspects charged with plotting to kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer is asking the judge to reconsider her decision to keep him locked up: He’s worried about getting the COVID-19 virus. Kaleb Franks, arraigned in federal court in Kent County, Michigan, faces charges related to what the FBI says was a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer. Kaleb Franks of Waterford, a recovering heroin addict who says he has turned his life around after doing time for cocaine and home invasion, has diabetes and high cholesterol, takes insulin daily and fears contracting COVID-19 in jail, his lawyer argued in court documents filed this week. The filing shed more light on the life of the 26-year-old defendant known as ‘Red Hot,’ who maintains that he can be trusted not to flee and that he is not a threat to society, despite the judge concluding on Oct. 13 that “he remains a danger to the community.” ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/213 "2020-11-01T01:34:21Z")
That’s true Leopards Ate My Face territory. Also, “I’ve turned my life around, except recently I plotted to overthrow the government.” 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/214 "2020-11-01T01:51:05Z")
I know! I thought I was reading **The Onion** at first! ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/215 "2020-11-01T02:03:54Z")
But his lawyer says he is not a danger to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/216 "2020-11-01T02:14:28Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > But his lawyer says he is not a danger to anyone. - Let him stay at his lawyer’s house, then. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/217 "2023-08-24T02:19:36Z")
Trial is finally starting: > **[Prosecutor says 3 men accused in plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer wanted...](https://apnews.com/article/whitmer-kidnapping-plot-trial-michigan-governor-fc00d15f2151c3df8ab97fb41728d810)** > > A prosecutor says three men accused in a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer wanted to start a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/218 "2023-09-15T15:21:41Z")
Three acquittals: > **[Jury clears 3 men in the last trial tied to the plot to kidnap Michigan Gov....](https://www.aol.com/news/jury-clears-3-men-last-145923117.html)** > > A jury acquitted three men Friday in the last trial connected to a plan to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, a scheme that was portrayed as an example of homegrown terrorism on the eve of the 2020 presidential election. William Null, twin... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/219 "2023-09-15T15:26:53Z")
Is this jury nullification? From the AOL article just above: > Molitor, 39, and William Null, 41, testified in their own defense, admitting they had attended gun drills and taken rides to check Whitmer’s property. But William Null said he and his brother broke away when talk turned to getting explosives. Molitor said Fox was “incredibly dumb” and wouldn’t pull off a kidnapping. > > Assistant Attorney General William Rollstin urged jurors to not be swayed. > > “If you help in whole or even in part you’ve satisfied that element” of the crime, Rollstin said in his closing argument Wednesday. “Was he helping him to plan? Was he helping him prepare? The answer is absolutely.” They literally admitted to helping further this crime. By their **own** admission. Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506/220 "2023-09-15T15:30:00Z")
From the article, they already convicted 9 of the 14 men who were charged. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plot-to-kidnap-mi-gov-gretchen-whitmer/922506.md?page=12)