# Plug-in electric cars **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552 "2008-02-28T20:57:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/41 "2008-02-29T23:34:51Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] I don’t see this as a big issue. I have a “time of day” rate plan which makes off-peak electricity usage 1/3 the cost of on-peak. If people start overloading the grid, the utilities will make on-peak power that much more expensive, and encourage people to put a timer on their electric buggy to start charging it after 9 pm… [/QUOTE] In California, they’re having problems _now_ with the grid being overloaded when people come home and turn on all their stuff. It’s to the point where they’re considering legislating remote controlled thermostats for residential HVAC units so the power company can take control of your unit if demand get’s too great, and charging different amounts for energy used during peak times only works if people have the right kind of meters on their houses (and apparently many don’t). Don’t take my word for it, however, [at least one automaker says the grid _can’t_ handle PHEVs right now.](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/to-phev-or-not.html) > [@](#): > > PHEV is a less cost-effective way to reduce petroleum and greenhouse gas emissions than the hybrid (particularly in the near-term); and, due to its higher upfront cost, it will have a harder time penetrating the market. The plug-in hybrid also faces greater technical and infrastructure risk than the HEV: while the hybrid has already enjoyed market success, the plug-in hybrid still requires significant improvements in battery technology to meet the rigors of an automotive duty cycle. And while the infrastructure for supporting hybrid vehicles is already mature, deploying the plug-in hybrid at scale will require regulation to ensure that off-peak generation capacity is used; depending on geography, it could also require capacity expansion. While the infrastructure issues represent a relatively low barrier to deployment, the technical challenges will delay the time-to-market for the plug-in hybrid. > > Taken together, the long time to market penetration and the lower cost-effectiveness of the plug-in hybrid suggest that the HEV offers a higher leverage, lower-cost path to reducing petroleum and GHG emissions in the near-term. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/42 "2008-03-01T06:21:02Z")
Yeah, but that quote assumes that everybody switched to them all at once, which seems unlikely to happen, given the general negative attitudes about electric vehicles and their greater cost. As with most other technology transitions, it will happen gradually, and the electric system will grow to compensate. The grid of 1980 couldn’t handle all the computers of today, either…but here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/43 "2008-03-01T07:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=TimeWinder] Yeah, but that quote assumes that everybody switched to them all at once, which seems unlikely to happen, given the general negative attitudes about electric vehicles and their greater cost. [/quote] Again, the grid’s having problems _now_. Adding electric cars to it would be even worse. I wasn’t kidding about [California taking control of thermostats.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=451272) > [@](#): > > As with most other technology transitions, it will happen gradually, and the electric system will grow to compensate. The grid of 1980 couldn’t handle all the computers of today, either…but here we are. Not necessarily. [According to report numbered 822807 (which dates from the Eighties):](http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk3/1982/8228/) > [@](#): > > World resources of all materials considered appear to be sufficient to electrify much more than 20% of light duty vehicular travel in the US, as well as supply the projected demand from other users. This additional demand would necessitate significant expansion of capacity, however, and worldwide adoption of EHVs at the same level as in the United States would multiply resource and production demands by 3-4 times. Be interesting to see what the power demands of all the computers are compared to the size of the vehicle fleet then was. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/44 "2008-03-27T20:43:58Z")
Here’s support for my contention that Plug-ins won’t overload the grid: [http://www.news.com/8301-11128\_3-9904484-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1\_3-0-5](http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9904484-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/45 "2008-03-27T21:58:40Z")
> [@](#): > > My ex- worked for a state public utilities commission. She used to eat numbers for breakfast, looking at propositions in the short- as well as long-term. This wasn’t just dollars and cents, either. > > For instance, she used to say that people thought of solar panels as a “green” measure but in fact, the manufacturing process created more pollution than the solar panels would “eliminate” over their useful lifetime. At that time (say, 1992), I thought it was ironic that people would pay a premium to do something for the earth but ultimately do more damage to the environment. > > The total environmental impact of a plan has to be considered, I think. That may include mining or manufacturing or emissions or other issues. Find the perfect solution and the average guy may not be able to afford it. Actually, one simple approximation to environmental impact is to just measure everything in dollars. The manufacture of solar panels has a negative impact on the environment primarily because it costs energy to make them, and the solar panel factory has to buy that energy from the same power companies that you do. So the dollar balance doesn’t work out on solar panels, precisely because the energy balance doesn’t work out. Most of the things that can be done to help the environment also help the monetary bottom line, so it’s not even a matter of “sacrificing”. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/46 "2008-03-27T22:03:11Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Actually, one simple approximation to environmental impact is to just measure everything in dollars. The manufacture of solar panels has a negative impact on the environment primarily because it costs energy to make them, and the solar panel factory has to buy that energy from the same power companies that you do. So the dollar balance doesn’t work out on solar panels, precisely because the energy balance doesn’t work out. Most of the things that can be done to help the environment also help the monetary bottom line, so it’s not even a matter of “sacrificing”. [/QUOTE] Sorry, but that’s bunk. Solar panels pay for themselves in energy within a few years: [http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf](http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/47 "2008-03-27T23:30:41Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] Sorry, but that’s bunk. Solar panels pay for themselves in energy within a few years: [http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf](http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf) [/QUOTE] Both are (or were) probably true; the previous cite was from the early 90’s, this one’s from 2004. I know that solar panel efficiency has increased enormously in that time. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/48 "2008-03-27T23:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=TimeWinder] Both are (or were) probably true; the previous cite was from the early 90’s, this one’s from 2004. I know that solar panel efficiency has increased enormously in that time. [/QUOTE] Ahhh, the time-honored technique of using outdated and erroneous information to support your position. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/49 "2008-03-27T23:59:21Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] Ahhh, the time-honored technique of using outdated and erroneous information to support your position. [/QUOTE] I don’t think anyone was being intentionally deceptive here – in particular the original quote specifically said “At that time (say 1992)…” So we have a statement about the past, labeled as being about the past, and a statement about the (relative) present, also labeled as such. The point isn’t so much about solar panels being a net loss of energy as the broader point that energy efficiency arguments are pretty hard to make at all unless you know exactly what everyone’s counting. For example, a lot of folks claim that (say) plug-in hybrids are inefficient because of the energy cost to make them, while failing to count the construction energy costs of gasoline vehicles. That’s just not a comparison that does anyone any good – not enough information to decide either way. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/50 "2008-03-28T02:46:07Z")
[QUOTE=TimeWinder] The point isn’t so much about solar panels being a net loss of energy as the broader point that energy efficiency arguments are pretty hard to make at all unless you know exactly what everyone’s counting. For example, a lot of folks claim that (say) plug-in hybrids are inefficient because of the energy cost to make them, while failing to count the construction energy costs of gasoline vehicles. That’s just not a comparison that does anyone any good – not enough information to decide either way. [/QUOTE] Along these same lines, you hear a lot of people say that ethanol isn’t worth it, because it takes energy to make the ethanol. What they forget is that refining petroleum has some pretty steep energy requirements of its own. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/51 "2008-03-28T09:17:15Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] Here’s support for my contention that Plug-ins won’t overload the grid: [News - CNET](http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9904484-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5) [/QUOTE] Yes, but that _only_ works if the company’s [Smart-Grid Technology](http://www.news.com/Pumping-power-onto-the-grid-from-your-basement/2100-1008_3-6104005.html) is _also_ installed in the house. So not only do you have to buy a new car, you’ve got to buy a new gizmo for the house as well. This makes it impractical for folks who live in apartments, for example. Note also that the claims are being made by folks who’ve got a _strong_ economic incentive for people to switch to plug-in hybrids. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/52 "2008-03-28T14:28:57Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Yes, but that _only_ works if the company’s [Smart-Grid Technology](http://www.news.com/Pumping-power-onto-the-grid-from-your-basement/2100-1008_3-6104005.html) is _also_ installed in the house. So not only do you have to buy a new car, you’ve got to buy a new gizmo for the house as well. This makes it impractical for folks who live in apartments, for example. Note also that the claims are being made by folks who’ve got a _strong_ economic incentive for people to switch to plug-in hybrids. [/QUOTE] Sure, but I don’t think that’s such a big deal. I’ve been on time-of-day electrical billing for many years, and It’s a simple matter of swapping out the meter. Then, you either pay 3¢ or 13¢ per kWh. I doubt that anyone is ever going to **force** you to charge your car after 10pm, it’s always going to be incentivized economically. So, if you want to make sure you’re not being reamed, you buy the timer yourself… ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/53 "2008-03-28T16:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] Sure, but I don’t think that’s such a big deal. I’ve been on time-of-day electrical billing for many years, and It’s a simple matter of swapping out the meter. Then, you either pay 3¢ or 13¢ per kWh. I doubt that anyone is ever going to **force** you to charge your car after 10pm, it’s always going to be incentivized economically. So, if you want to make sure you’re not being reamed, you buy the timer yourself… [/QUOTE] The only price I could find in the article for their technology was $11K, that’s not exactly what I’d call a cheap timer. Also, not every utility offers off-peak pricing. Certainly none of the ones around here do. And how many folks who own cars live in apartments compared to folks who own their homes? In a place like NYC, or Los Angeles, I’d imagine that apartment dwellers significantly out-number home owners by a wide margin. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/54 "2008-03-28T16:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] The only price I could find in the article for their technology was $11K, that’s not exactly what I’d call a cheap timer. Also, not every utility offers off-peak pricing. Certainly none of the ones around here do. And how many folks who own cars live in apartments compared to folks who own their homes? In a place like NYC, or Los Angeles, I’d imagine that apartment dwellers significantly out-number home owners by a wide margin. [/QUOTE] I suspect a timer won’t cost more than $100 in quantity (I know I could design one for less). As far as apartment dwellers go, they probably won’t be able to charge their electric cars at home… ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/55 "2008-03-28T17:50:32Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] I suspect a timer won’t cost more than $100 in quantity (I know I could design one for less) [/QUOTE] Why all this concern about $11,000 technology or even $100 to design something new? For about $5 at any hardware store you can buy a 24-hr timer that plugs into a socket (say to turn a lamp on and off at the hours you set.) Why would a car need anything else? Joe Average can just plug his car into the wall of his garage when he gets home at 6:00 p.m, but the juice won’t start flowing till the timer kicks in at 10:00pm. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/56 "2008-03-28T17:57:30Z")
[QUOTE=chappachula] Why all this concern about $11,000 technology or even $100 to design something new? For about $5 at any hardware store you can buy a 24-hr timer that plugs into a socket (say to turn a lamp on and off at the hours you set.) Why would a car need anything else? Joe Average can just plug his car into the wall of his garage when he gets home at 6:00 p.m, but the juice won’t start flowing till the timer kicks in at 10:00pm. [/QUOTE] Except that most of your plug-in vehicles plug into a 220V line. Also, by allowing the vehicle owner to plug their car into “any old socket,” they’re _also_ allowed to charge it up at “any old time,” which is the problem. In California, people cranking up their A/Cs when they get home so strains the grid that the state is considering mandating all new HVAC units be equipped with a remote control unit so the _power company_ can control your thermostat during peak demand times. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/57 "2008-03-28T21:31:05Z")
[QUOTE=jasonh300] 67 HP is more than enough to power a car, especially if it’s a lightweight car. I have a 1987 Chevy Sprint ER with a Suzuki 3 Cylinder 1.0 liter engine that only produces 50 HP. The car weighs right around 1000 pounds and it’ll do 0 to 60 in about 15 seconds. I think the rating you need to look for is torque more than horsepower. I’ve read that these electric motors generate a lot more torque than a gasoline engine. This probably requires a good understanding of the definition of torque and I’m not the person to give that…hopefully someone else can elaborate. [/QUOTE] The car weighed more like 1500 lbs and the turbo version of it was slower than a stock Ford Escort. electric motors produce all or most of their torque on start-up. That is not the same as hp and will not compensate totally for zero to 60 times. It will pull hard off the line and be fun to drive around town. When you are looking for acceleration think in terms of power to weight ratio. Example, A Dodge Caliber weighs 3000 lbs and the base engine is 150 hp which gives you a ratio of 20 lbs per hp. That should get you on the highway. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/58 "2008-03-28T21:55:39Z")
There are several websites that sell kits-you take a car (like a Porsch 914), rip the engine and fuel tank out, put in an electric motor and a battery pack. These conversions have a range of about 40 miles/charge, and seem to be pretty driveable. Has anyone done this and calculated the savings? I’d be interested to know. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/59 "2008-03-28T22:02:29Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] There are several websites that sell kits-you take a car (like a Porsch 914), rip the engine and fuel tank out, put in an electric motor and a battery pack. These conversions have a range of about 40 miles/charge, and seem to be pretty driveable. Has anyone done this and calculated the savings? I’d be interested to know. [/QUOTE] It’s not much by the time you factor in the costs of the kits, and the ranges they give are under ideal conditions with things like the radio and A/C off. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552/60 "2008-03-29T03:11:59Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Except that most of your plug-in vehicles plug into a 220V line. Also, by allowing the vehicle owner to plug their car into “any old socket,” they’re _also_ allowed to charge it up at “any old time,” which is the problem. In California, people cranking up their A/Cs when they get home so strains the grid that the state is considering mandating all new HVAC units be equipped with a remote control unit so the _power company_ can control your thermostat during peak demand times. [/QUOTE] Uh, first off, “most” right now is so inconsequentially small that it doesn’t matter whether it’s 220 or 120. And also California has been a very special case since the intolerable rule of Grayout Davis. That is, California may not be the best gage for the rest of the country. Also, I voluntarily have interruptible A/C power. Edison can’t control my temperature directly, but they can cut me off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plug-in-electric-cars/439552.md?page=4)