# Plus and "and"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 21, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673 "2001-11-21T23:56:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@barking\_frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barking_frog)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/1 "2001-11-21T23:56:33Z")
Over the past few years it seems most, if not all, of my teachers have been using the + symbol for the word and, yet I had always thought the symbol + meant plus and & was for the word and. This has lead to some confusion, especially in the sciences, e.g., “if…evaluate sec2x + csc2x.” This could easily be interpreted as “sec2x + csc2x” even though what is meant is “sec2x and csc2x.” Also, in English class, the short form of the short story “Boys and Girls” was written as “Boys + Girls,” is this correct? Is “Boys & Girls” wrong? (BTW I’m not talking about citing the short story, just which one to do in notes and other stuff.)
So, is the plus symbol the new symbol for and? Was “&” ever the symbol for and, or have I just been mistaken for so long?
---
### Author:  [@Ikujinashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ikujinashi)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/2 "2001-11-22T00:35:17Z")
‘&’ is the correct abbreviation for ‘and.’ In a shorthand situation ‘boys & girls’ and ‘boys + girls’ are both correct - they convey the intended meaning. If math is involved though you need to be a lot more careful with your symbols (as you noted in your trig example). Of course the only rule in notes is that you be able to understand them later.
Bonus: in boolean logic ‘+’ means OR and ‘&’ means AND.
---
### Author:  [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/3 "2001-11-22T00:39:40Z")
I don’t think the “+” used as “and” is such a new practice - I remember first noticing it back, oh, about 25 or so years ago. My WAG is that it’s just a lazy (and loose) way to denote “and,” without giving thought to possible mathematical confusion.
But anyway, for something more rooted in fact - the ampersand sign is derived from the linking of the letters “et,” which is Latin for “and.” Very fascinating hitory [here](http://www.adobe.com/type/topics/theampersand.html).
---
### Author:  [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/4 "2001-11-22T00:41:43Z")
AAARGHH! hiStory! PREVIEW!
---
### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/5 "2001-11-22T00:49:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Earthling \*
> \*\*But anyway, for something more rooted in fact - the ampersand sign is derived from the linking of the letters “et,” which is Latin for “and.” \*\*
Often in older literature (Poe comes to mind) you’ll see “et cetera” (“_and_ the rest”) abbreviated “&tc.” instead of “etc.”
---
### Author:  [@barking\_frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barking_frog)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/6 "2001-11-22T07:23:00Z")
If & stands for et/and, then why isn’t it &c.?
So… even though they both can imply the same meaning, is “+” a correct substitute for “&”? I mean, Barnes and Noble is often spelt “Barnes & Noble,” but would “Barnes + Noble” be correct?
---
### Author:  [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/7 "2001-11-22T16:50:18Z")
Actually, I believe it _is_ “&c,” without the “t.” I suspect **Balthisar** made a typo.
Regarding “+” vs. “&,” I’ve never seen “+” used in print (except for corporate logos, advertising, or other such creative stuff), but for a definitive answer you’d best consult a good [style manual](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226103897/qid=1006447513/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_7_1/103-2118577-9115057), which unfortunately I don’t have handy at the moment.
---
### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/8 "2001-11-22T17:42:22Z")
Many people use the cursive-looking “+” because an ampersand is kind of hard to draw. Is that what you’re talking about? This character is usually drawn by moving the pen down for the vertical line, keeping the tip on the paper while it goes to the left end of the horizontal bar, then drawing the horizontal bar. It ends up looking like a “+” with a segment connecting the bottom and left ends. Often, a little loop is drawn just above the left end.
When I see this character, I interpret it as a cursive ampersand, and not a plus sign.
---
### Author:  [@fish\_in\_the\_sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fish_in_the_sky)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/9 "2001-11-22T21:33:52Z")
Whenever I handwrite an ampersand, I draw it like a **3** with a vertical line through it, instead of trying to make a **&**. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody handwrite a **&** - out of curiousity, how are you people writing ampersands?
I mix use of & and + in handwriting, using **+** for lists of objects (ie., “I bought magoes, papayas, + watermelon”) cos they’re things that I’m adding together, and **&** to replace “and” in a more, uh, grammatical sense, I guess (ie. “I made a fruit salad & shared it with my mailman.”), but I don’t know if this is at all a “standard” way of doing things. I never use **+** in typing, and have never seen it done except in logos.
---
### Author:  [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/10 "2001-11-22T23:07:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lunatic13 \*
> **Whenever I handwrite an ampersand, I draw it like a 3 with a vertical line through it, instead of trying to make a &. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody handwrite a & - out of curiousity, how are you people writing ampersands?**
It’s exactly like a cursive capital ‘S’, only backwards.
---
### Author:  [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/11 "2001-11-22T23:54:10Z")
A drive by comment…
Of course, in everyday language, people use “plus” or “add” for “and” all the time. But I think I’ve taken too many math classes. I have begun to make the distinction in my own everyday speech, and I get a little irritated when other people mix them up. (maybe only ultrafilter can appreciate this)
I have yet to find a good verb to use for the notion of “set union”. I tend to use “combine with” “join with” or “adjoin” but all are awkward. (“append”, “concatenate”?)
My desire is to keep the notion of addition, as a operator on sets of numbers, distinct from “and” as an indication of combining sets.
For instance, when ordering at McDonald’s you won’t hear me say “add an apple pie” to the order. But you would hear me say “that adds 50 cents to the cost”.
Don’t get me started on “unique” and “distinct”…
---
### Author:  [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2001, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/12 "2001-11-23T00:01:54Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lunatic13 \*
> \*\*Whenever I handwrite an ampersand, I draw it like a **3** with a vertical line through it, instead of trying to make a **&**. \*\*
I write it as a _backwards_ 3 with a line through it - more like a cursive E with line. Funny.
The other one I use which I don’t think is correct is the shorthand for _with_. I jsut write a w with a bar over it, but most people I know write a c with a bar. Which is correct? Is the c just a more traditional way? Abbreviation of something in Latin, maybe?
---
### Author:  [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/13 "2001-11-23T00:38:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by mnemosyne \*
> **The other one I use which I don’t think is correct is the shorthand for _with_. I jsut write a w with a bar over it, but most people I know write a c with a bar. Which is correct? Is the c just a more traditional way? Abbreviation of something in Latin, maybe?**
I don’t know which is correct, but isn’t “cum” Latin for “with?” (as in Summa cum Laude). That would explain using a “c.”
BTW, I write my ampersand just like it is on a printed page - **&** - but I haven’t seen anyone _else_ do that.
---
### Author:  [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2001, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/14 "2001-11-23T01:56:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by kellymccauley \*
> **A drive by comment…
> Of course, in everyday language, people use “plus” or “add” for “and” all the time. But I think I’ve taken too many math classes. I have begun to make the distinction in my own everyday speech, and I get a little irritated when other people mix them up. (maybe only ultrafilter can appreciate this)**
Yup, I sure can. Bugs the hell out of me when people use “infinite” to describe a large number of things.
\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> I have yet to find a good verb to use for the notion of “set union”. I tend to use “combine with” “join with” or “adjoin” but all are awkward. (“append”, “concatenate”?)\*\*
I always just say “union”, as in “Union those two sets together.” Of course, there doesn’t seem to be anything exactly like set unioning in everyday life, so that might explain the lack of a verb.
---
### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2001, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/15 "2001-11-23T02:30:02Z")
The ampersand and the c-with-an-extra-stroke meaning ‘with’ are both survivals of old shorthand. I wouldn’t be surprised if they originated in classical Roman shorthand.
The ampersand represents the Latin word _et_ ‘and’. Originally a cursive _E_ with a little _t_ in the lower right.
As a kid I didn’t like the way people used + instead of the ampersand, so I decided to write it properly. I’ve been handwriting the ampersand ever since. There is nothing at all difficult about it, and I never understood why people avoided it. Here’s how I write it:
Start from the lower right end. Swoop up to the upper left, curve to the right over the top, swoop down to lower left and then up to the right a little, crossing the beginning stroke. It’s no worse than writing a G clef on a music staff.
Since it was shorthand to begin with, how could it not be easy to write?
---
### Author:  [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2001, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/16 "2001-11-23T04:19:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by mnemosyne \*
> \*\*
> The other one I use which I don’t think is correct is the shorthand for _with_. I jsut write a w with a bar over it, but most people I know write a c with a bar. Which is correct? Is the c just a more traditional way? Abbreviation of something in Latin, maybe? \*\*
As **Earthling** says, c-bar is from Latin _cum_, meaning _with_. It’s used a lot in medical notes. I tried a couple of sites, and found it at [http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Opera/8462/medical\_abbreviations.html](http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Opera/8462/medical_abbreviations.html), listed under C. I first looked on the W page, and also found w-bar, so I guess they’re both in use.
---
### Author:  [@barking\_frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barking_frog)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2001, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/17 "2001-11-23T07:38:29Z")
I know there are quite a few cases where plus is often informally substituted for and, but I mean, if one doesn’t say “boys plus girls,” why write “Boys + Girls”? Or is the cursive + an accepted shorthand for &/and?
FWIW, I whenever I see the +, I just copy it down as an “&”, I mean, it doesn’t take that much more effort to write. However, I know very few people who also use the “&”.
---
### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2001, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/18 "2001-11-23T11:10:10Z")
Have done since school in the UK.
It’s all one movement, without the pen leaving the paper. Start at bottom right and go up diagonal left. Then make a small loop to the right at the top, and head down bottom left. Finally, loop back right in a large U shape that intersects the first stroke.
Presto: &
---
### Author:  [@dwc1970](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dwc1970)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/19 "2001-11-23T17:28:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lunatic13 \*
> Whenever I handwrite an ampersand, I draw it like a **3** with a vertical line through it, instead of trying to make a **&**. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody handwrite a **&** - out of curiousity, how are you people writing ampersands?
I write my ampersands the way they appear in typed text. I just look at it as like writing an **8**. Just look at the **&** (shift-7) on your keyboard, which is conveniently next to the **8** key and you’ll see the similarities.
---
### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2001, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plus-and-and/94673/20 "2001-11-24T16:45:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Earthling \*
> **Actually, I believe it _is_ “&c,” without the “t.” I suspect Balthisar made a typo.**
It’s especially embarrassing when the _example_ I write it typo-d!