# PMS question... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2000, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582 "2000-06-16T14:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/21 "2000-06-18T16:16:27Z")
Ooooh, I’ve been missing out on THIS one: Sycorax: quote: ```auto Tell me you were joking on this one. Do words like jerk, a$$h0le, c&%$sucker, mother&%$#er, etc come to mind at all. If you are gonna tell me women don't use derogatory words for men, you are about to lose ALL credibility with me. I can discuss a bit about the scientific literature on PMS (being in psychology I actually have come across some of this stuff). The symptoms of PMS, which occur in some but not all women include cramps, irritation, bloating, discomfort. the hormones involved do not have a direct action on mood. Women who experience mood symptoms typically 1.) are becoming irritable due to the physical symptoms (who wouldn't) or 2.) have expectancy effects about that relative time of the month...in other words they might expect to be in a bad mood, thus you are. You don't need to necessarily be consciously aware of this happening, but as the time approaches you just notice your mood declining. At any rate there is nothing about the hormonal changes that FORCES a woman to change her behavior. As far as the PMS defense in crime, this was started by a researcher named Dalton, who notices some female criminals committed crimes around their menstruation. However, Dalton's studies have been severely criticized for poor methodology, and making unwarranted inferences. No one in psychology takes these types of theories very seriously anymore, and they have not borne up to replication. In the US, such defenses are typically not accepted by juries, but as one poster noted, unfortunately in the UK, sometimes they are (the UK is notoriously behind the times in understanding female crime...you also can not go to jail for killing your infant in the UK, as they assume you are mentally ill...again in stark contrast to the research literature). As far as post-partum depression/psychosis goes, though such things do happen, as noted in a recent article by Overpeck et al. in New England Journal of Medicine, most of the cases of child abuse/infanticide by women (which account for 80% of ALL cases of infanticide) do not involve post-partum illnesses, but rather 1.) an unwanted child, 2.) child abuse taken to homicide 3.) desire to get revenge at the father. Sorry went a bit off topic, but I find this stuff fascinating. At any rate the point is is that such things as mental illness/PMS/post-partum this or that are used to explain the dark side of female behavior, because many of us still subscribe to the Victorian Madonna-Whore philosophy which suggests that women could not CHOOSE to engage in aggressive/amoral behavior because they are morally pure. thus is a woman is "bitchy" it could not possibly because she has that side to her personality, must be some lapse of reason on her part. I, personally, find this perspective to be naive, and downright insulting to women. this is also a product of our society which seeks to absolve anyone of personal blame...thus we have syndromes for any bad behavior. Drink too much and lose your job, you're a victim, you're an alcoholic. Not good at school, you're a victim, you've got ADHD (as a disclaimer there ARE legitimate cases of ADHD, but this disorder is WAY overdiagnosed). Kill your husband for the insurance money, don't go to jail, just say you're a victim, you've got Battered Wife Syndrome (again, disclaimer, there are some legitimate cases of self-defense, but these are usually qualitatively different from the women who kill for other reasons...nonetheless they almost always claim self-defense, and thankfully are usually disproved in this claim). Surgoshan: You bring up some interesting points on domestic violence. If you look into the literature (Straus and Gelles, 1986; Steinmetz, 1977, etc.) you will see that indeed women DO commit equal amounts of domestic violence as men, and actually are more likely to use clubs, knives, etc...to balance out the strength differential. And yes men do not report it because they are embarrassed. StompyGodzilla: quote: ~~~Like a lot of the posters, I'll suddenly find myself all weepy and insecure and not realise why until I look at the calender. Over the years, though, I've learned to use it as a sort of monthly catharsis. I'm overly driven and focused the rest of the month, working my a** off and burying my feelings about things -- so for these three or four days, my emotions hijack the plane and demand attention. I have a few good cries, let my feelings out ... it's probably quite healthy, though not necessarily delightful for my spouse. Love the name. this sounds like the "expectancy" I was talking about. The event itself takes on a meaning for you all of its own. lologranola: quote: ~~~And I am weird because I don't get PMS (or cramps or anything else normally associated with that time of the month) or is it fairly common not to have any side effects? Don't listen to divemaster. :) Yes it is normal not to get ANY symptoms. Again, PMS symptoms seem to vary widely in women. ``` ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/22 "2000-06-19T07:58:19Z")
The hormone shifts that cause PMS _absolutely_ have a direct effect on moods. This has been documented again and again. The mood changes are not just secondary to physical symptoms or due to expectation. Just wanted to mention this. I’d say you need to look at the literature a little more. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/23 "2000-06-19T14:09:45Z")
Is it just me, or does it seem like JillGat has been a little out of sorts lately? Hmm. It must be that time… OW! ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/24 "2000-06-19T14:37:58Z")
\>\> margaret Thatcher, Queen Elizabeth’s, Mrs Clinton, are examples of women who can rule & they aren’t influed by PMS. What? Queen Elisabeth rules? Where? Mrs. Clinton is in a state of _permanent_ PMS bitchiness, that’s why you can’t see any difference. And margaret Thatcher had balls, that explains _her_. ---
**Author:** ![lolagranola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea5d25/32.png) [@lolagranola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lolagranola)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/25 "2000-06-19T14:46:35Z")
[QUPTE]Well, lolagranola, are you sure you don’t have a penis? You might want to check again just to make sure. That would certainly answer your question. [/QUOTE] Quite positive, really. If I was in doubt of my gender, I feel quite certain that giving birth four times would really tip me off… Whoa, hey! Maybe I don’t get PMS because I’m always pregnant… ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/26 "2000-06-19T14:59:47Z")
JillGat: quote: ```auto Nope, you are wrong, at least as far as I could see. I actually did go look up some stuff, just in case I was not up to date and had missed something. Actually I found out some even more interesting stuff. I found an article which not only questioned the role of hormones and mood, but also pointed out that symptoms of PMS in general have never been conclusively demonstrated to have anything to do with hormones (Hammarback et al., 1989). They are not saying that is ISN'T hormones causing the physical symptoms, just that research is not conclusive. Personally I have difficulty thinking of any other plausible hypothesis. I didn't even realize THAT. I thought that at least the physical symptoms were pretty conclusively demonstrated to be hormonal. Also it has been shown that psychological factors such as life stres, depression, marital distress, etc, can bring on symptoms of PMS (Coughlin, 1990). So what that indicates is that not only does the biology of PMS not necessarily force people to behave in a certain way, but also, a person's mental state could effect the biology enough to bring on the symptoms. Never underestimate either the control or personal responsibility you hold on each of your actions. :) Incidentally there is also plenty of research that suggests, diet changes, excersize, vitamines, etc. can help ease the symptoms (Prior & Vigna, 1987; London et al, 1987, Stuart, 1987). So if you have the symptoms yet choose not to avail yourself of means of alleviating them, you still bear some responsibility. (as Rush said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.") I would be curious to look up some of the articles you suggest provide conclusive evidence of a direct link between PMS and mood. Scientific, empirical articles please, not web sites. I am always willing to learn new stuff. ``` ---
**Author:** ![hedra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/27 "2000-06-19T19:03:08Z")
I wonder, if stress, diet, exercise, and vitamin intake can affect the symptoms, is it possible that the hormones affect the metabolism, and the metabolism affects the mood? What about hormones and pregnancy mood swings? Or is that JUST the enormity of what we are doing that causes those mood swings (which certainly would be ENOUGH to cause it, just it boggles the mind if that is all it is!). Also, metabolic changes are significant in pregnancy, so again, it could be a subtle multi-factoral problem, a bunch of factors including metabolism all together making the result, too complex for a simple cause-result study. Just thoughts. I don’t LIKE the idea that I’m periodically hyper-reactive because I expect to be. But hey, I love my husband, and if KNOWING I can keep it from happening means I CAN, then why not? (Though I’ll still have to take something for the backache) Oh, and the good run suggests that discomfort is definitely a factor - endorphins and all… AND since I know few women who actually pay attention to how their whole body feels, they might well have discomfort they haven’t noticed. Cites later, if I find any, and if I don’t I’ll say so, too (assuming the thread is still kicking by then…) ---
**Author:** ![StompyGodzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@StompyGodzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StompyGodzilla)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/28 "2000-06-19T20:27:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > quote: > > ```auto > > Love the name. this sounds like the "expectancy" I was talking about. The event itself takes on a meaning for you all of its own. > > ** > > ``` Yes, it has, but I should point out that it varies hugely from month to month – some months I hardly have any symptoms at all, other months quite noticeable ones. Although your ‘expectancy’ theory is interesting, so far as I’m concerned, it’s just not true. Let me point again to my first sentence. These feelings are very strong and come seemingly from nowhere. I am certainly not expecting them, and as I say, am reminded by the feelings themselves that perhaps it’s that time, rather than thinking of it being that time and then having those feelings. The fact that I’ve learned to use these feelings to my advantage is beside the point. You could of course get all Freudian here and say that my unconscious has simply learned that that time of each month is its ‘catharsis’ time, to which I can only reply that these emotions _feel_ hormonal, and that hormonal-induced feelings do feel noticeably different from my normal ones. More hyped-up, slightly panicked, like I’m on speed or something. You’ll have to take my word for this. I don’t care what the studies say – PMS DOES bring about mood shifts in some women. Stompy (and sometimes more so during ‘that’ time) ---
**Author:** ![StompyGodzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@StompyGodzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StompyGodzilla)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/29 "2000-06-19T20:33:44Z")
\*\* [/QUOTE] I don’t care what the studies say – PMS DOES bring about mood shifts in some women. Stompy (and sometimes more so during ‘that’ time) \*\* [/QUOTE] Sigh. Just read that line over. I’ll try it again, shall I? Ahem. (Plants hands on hips, juts chin belligerently) “I don’t care what the studies say – hormones DO bring about mood shifts in some women.” Stompy (and sometimes more so when my words get all confusticated) ---
**Author:** ![Kate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kate)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2000, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/30 "2000-06-22T13:39:04Z")
Ever ask your elders (as in born before/around WWII) how they coped with PMS? Ever notice how they generally shrug and say “we’d never heard of it?” Cultural and global trends affect us. I have found no medical studies establishing a conclusive causal relationship between monthly hormone changes and mood swings, and several which have failed to find just such a link (no sources with me, sorry). Women’s sudden over-awareness of their bodies and eagerness to hop on the feminism bandwagon in the early '70s have taught them to cry PMS in order to get society’s sympathy vote. Hey, it’s the era of “my suffering makes me worthy.” And we thought the gay 1890s were bad. This stems from the general and more insidious modern trend to refuse to take responsibility for oneself - whether physical actions or mental attitudes. Note the upswing of therapy, political apathy, “New-Age” bunk solutions, and the supreme idiocy of email recipients, who expect $5 from Bill Gates for every forward. How easy to blame hormones for one’s own shortcomings. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2000, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582/31 "2000-06-22T13:53:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*First of all, let’s be clear on one thing: men may not get PMS, but women _rarely_ beat their spouses (or other guys in bars), shoot their families and co-workers when they get “disgruntled” or in other ways act out violently as often as men do. Prisons are full of violent men… women in prison are usually there because of addiction problems. And of course this behavior isn’t common in men, either, but I’m just sayin’. > > \*\* > > With all due respect the aforesaid is not an accurate picture of the situation as it exists in the real world. Women with PMS (or for whatever reason) can and do get _very_ physically agressive with their mates and it’s not all that “rare” either. The reason men are not “beat up” in these circumstances is not the forbearance of the PMSing woman but mainly the size and strength disparity that normally (but not always) exists between males and females. > > Men often can and will take a full out “beating” from a woman, and short of the woman seriously injuring them, either shrug it off or remove themselves from the situation and the woman has no acknowledged perception that she has done anything untoward other than be “emotional” where if a man was dealing those blows to a woman with the same ferocity as she had the night before the recipient would be seriously injured or dead. > > The real world relative levels of violence between men and women are much narrower than you might imagine. It’s mainly that the _results_ are different when the man is being the physical aggressor. It’s an unpleasant way to live in either case.\*\* My wife is 4 foot, eleven inches tall. I’m 6 foot, two inches tall. ( and I have 100 pounds on her- AND I’m a pacifist) Her vitriolic fury is peerless, and when she is PMS’ing ( typically the last 14 days before her period ☹ ) , she’s worse. In our most awful fights, SHE has been the one to say, “get away from me or I will fucking beat your head in”. Let’s say she loses it, goes after me with fists, or devices. Who do YOU think the cops are going to arrest, and hold? Not HER. So, easy there on the whole, " men are murderous wife-beating rapist thug asshole killers, and women are just misunderstood drug addicts and nothing else". Sorry, cupcake, doesn’t work that way. ``` If my wife were to ever truly lost control, I WOULD do jail time, not her. Whatever injury I might suffer is irrelevant, and you know it. NO Judge would look at us, and beleive me one bit. Save the diatribe for people who don't live with an angry, violent, agressive woman, okay? ``` And, have a nice day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pms-question/22582.md?page=1)