# POCK-ih-stan or PACK-ih-stan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863 "2010-05-10T02:01:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/1 "2010-05-10T02:01:40Z")
For most of my life it seems that I’ve heard it pronounced PACK-ih-stan, but recently I’ve been hearing POCK-ih-stan a lot in the media. Obama says it that way, among others. Is this a recent change, or have there always been two pronunciations in general use? Realizing that there are certainly differences in different nations, this post applys to usage in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/2 "2010-05-10T02:40:37Z")
I’ve always thought it odd that Obama pronounces it POCK-ih-stahn, but he doesn’t pronounce Afghanistan “Ahf-gahn-ih-stahn.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/3 "2010-05-10T03:01:35Z")
Pakistan, unlike Afghanistan, was part of British India, and in both Pakistan and India there remain a large number of people who speak English fluently, usually as a second language but one learned young. They tend to use a ‘British’ pronunciation, with some specialized variants I’m not enough of a linguist to describe. I would expect that a typical Pkistani saying his country’s name in an English-language context would use the broad A (as in _Juan_) rather than the ‘sharp’ A of _rats_. (I assume most English speakers sound that vowel the way Jimmy Cagney did, rather than making the word a homophone for _rots_.) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/4 "2010-05-10T03:14:21Z")
Whenever I hear someone from the subcontinent say it, it sounds like “Pocky Stonn” ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/5 "2010-05-10T03:22:21Z")
Pronouncing it PACK-ih-stan isn’t remotely as ignorant-sounding as pronouncing it EYE-rack. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/6 "2010-05-10T05:22:28Z")
PaH-Kiss-Tahn. Here is a english language documentary from Pakistan (on its military), here the narrators prononciation.[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UYGJ-RHGUQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UYGJ-RHGUQ) ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/7 "2010-05-10T08:14:17Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > PaH-Kiss-Tahn. > > Here is a english language documentary from Pakistan (on its military), here the narrators prononciation.[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UYGJ-RHGUQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UYGJ-RHGUQ) This is how it’s pronounced by locals. Obama’s pronunciation is more correct than most Americans, who say PACK-ISS-TAN. Obama’s mother worked in Pakistan for some time, and he visited Pakistan when he was young, which is why I guess he’s familiar with the native pronunciation. The actual pronunciation of the T in PakisTan is different from how any American says it. Here’s my previous explanation on the dope about it: > [@Come Mister Tallyban tally me banana](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-mister-tallyban-tally-me-banana/519675/10): > > Obama pronounces Pakistan as the locals do. Taliban, locally, is pronounced taa-li-baan, with a soft T sound that no American I know seems to be able to differentiate from a hard T sound. It’s a sound that I think doesn’t exist in the English language, or at least I’m unable to find a word that uses it, to be able to explain the difference to my friends. > > The closest I can come to an explanation is this: > > Say tree. Now say three. See where your tongue is when you say three? It’s not the same place as tree, right? Now say T with your tongue at the the position where you start the word three. That’s a soft T sound. Am I making any sense? > > Next time you meet a South Asian friend, ask them to pronounce a native language word that uses a soft T and a hard T, and see if you can make out the difference. Chances are, you can’t. And here’s some more trivia: -stan (from Sanskrit) means place, e.g.: Afghanistan = Place of the Afghanis Hindustan (India) = Place of the Hindus ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/8 "2010-05-10T08:43:51Z")
Fuck. Here in America we pronounce pretty much anything that originates outside our own country incorrectly. And hell, who’s gonna complain? Most of us go our whole lives without speaking to, or even seeing, a person from another country. Obama pronounces ‘Pakistan’ more or less correctly. But what about all the other place-names? ‘Pakistan’ is a good start, but how 'bout we just flush all the snooty provincialism and speak like all the rest of the Earthlings? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/9 "2010-05-10T09:22:50Z")
The American pronunciation is exactly the same as the British one. Even second generation British Pakistanis pronounce Pakistan like the Americans and white British do. It’s not a case of provincialism, IMO. We can’t be expected to learn the local pronunciation of every town, city or country, especially when it involves sounds that are unnatural or uncommon in English. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/10 "2010-05-10T10:15:38Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The American pronunciation is exactly the same as the British one. Even second generation British Pakistanis pronounce Pakistan like the Americans and white British do. It’s not a case of provincialism, IMO. We can’t be expected to learn the local pronunciation of every town, city or country, especially when it involves sounds that are unnatural or uncommon in English. British people emphasis the last syllable, though – Pa-ki-STAHN or Pa-ki-STAN, whereas Americans seem to say PA-ki-stan or PAH-ki-stahn. (We’re faced here once again with the problem of people trying to describe pronunciation with the English alphabet, even though the same letters are pronounced differently depending on which variety of English you speak. To me “POCK-i-stan” sounds completely wrong, and is not at all the same as “PAHK-i-stan”, which is what I think the OP means, in my terms. \*\*Polycarp \*\*also uses that O vowel in a way that is confusing to speakers of British English - “rots” does not sound the same as “rahts” when I say it.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/11 "2010-05-10T10:40:46Z")
I can do the soft T, as it sounds to me like the t in Tao. But it’s really hard to do after an S. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/12 "2010-05-10T11:23:14Z")
The men are Pock-ih-men.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/13 "2010-05-10T13:33:47Z")
> [@xash](#): > > And here’s some more trivia: -stan (from Sanskrit) means place, e.g.: > > Afghanistan = Place of the Afghanis > Hindustan (India) = Place of the Hindus I believe the modern use of “Stan” comes directly from Persian, although the word does gave roots in common in other Indo-Iranian languages. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/14 "2010-05-10T14:27:18Z")
This sort of differential pronunciation is widespread. One parallel that leaps to mind is the American pronunciation of “France.” ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/15 "2010-05-10T14:36:21Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Fuck. Here in America we pronounce pretty much anything that originates outside our own country incorrectly. And hell, who’s gonna complain? Most of us go our whole lives without speaking to, or even seeing, a person from another country. :dubious: :smack: You don’t give your real location, so maybe it’s Under A Rock, but I don’t think I have gone a week without speaking to someone who was born in another country in the last 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/16 "2010-05-10T14:49:33Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > PaH-Kiss-Tahn. That’s how I say it and how people in my family say it (also we’re actually from there, so…yeah). ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/17 "2010-05-10T15:13:26Z")
Do you guys really go your whole lives without speaking to or seeing a person from another country? Really? I highly doubt that, unless you live under a rock! I don’t really care that other people call it (Pakistan) by the Westernized pronunciation. I do, however, care when people bitch at me for saying it with the Eastern pronunciation, saying things like “You live in America and you should pronounce it the way we do!” (Has happened.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/18 "2010-05-10T15:24:01Z")
It’s happened to Barack Obama too. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/19 "2010-05-10T15:30:14Z")
> [@xash](#): > > This is how it’s pronounced by locals. > > Obama’s pronunciation is more correct than most Americans, who say PACK-ISS-TAN. Obama’s mother worked in Pakistan for some time, and he visited Pakistan when he was young, which is why I guess he’s familiar with the native pronunciation. > > The actual pronunciation of the T in PakisTan is different from how any American says it. Here’s my previous explanation on the dope about it: > > And here’s some more trivia: -stan (from Sanskrit) means place, e.g.: > > Afghanistan = Place of the Afghanis > Hindustan (India) = Place of the Hindus That soft T seems to show up in “Rajasthani”, which (my impression is) doesn’t have a theta sound but an aspirated soft T. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/20 "2010-05-10T15:33:15Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s happened to Barack Obama too. People have bitched at him for saying it the right way? “Afghani” is another good one. I laughed a couple of years ago at a headline called “Afghans take to the hills.” I just thought it was funny as shit, imagining all of these blankets lumping up and shuffling off to the hills. But I got lectured, saying that all Americans and Westerners and indeed Afghanis and Indians ALL called them Afghans and that Afghans was the only correct term! Now, I am no linguist. It could be that linguistically Afghan is the correct term (but by whose rules, I wonder?) That doesn’t change the fact that every Afghani I have ever known has called themselves Afghani, and all of the Indians and Pakistanis I know also do. It’s the lecturing and the “I know better than you” attitude that bothers me. No, you don’t, not necessarily! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863.md?page=2)