# POCK-ih-stan or PACK-ih-stan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863 "2010-05-10T02:01:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/21 "2010-05-10T15:33:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Whenever I hear someone from the subcontinent say it, it sounds like “Pocky Stonn” I hear that on the BBC, too. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/22 "2010-05-10T16:26:40Z")
A more technical term for the different ‘t’ sounds is _dental_ and _retroflex_. The ‘soft t’ is dental, because the tongue starts at the teeth. Retroflex means the tongue is curled back. The English (at least American, as far as I know) ‘t’ sound is closer to the retroflex, though it’s said to be a bit further back in Urdu and similar languages. One slightly difficult bit (at least for me as an English native speaker) is that even when full transliteration indications are used, the unadorned ‘t’ is the dental. Retroflex t commonly uses a t with a dot below ( ṭ ). The IPA symbol is ʈ . **Polycarp** , Rajasthan is indeed राजस्थान, which has the aspirated dental t (थ), and not theta. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/23 "2010-05-10T16:51:18Z")
I’ve heard POCK-ih-_schtahn_ a few times on NPR. What kind of pronunciation is that? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/24 "2010-05-10T18:52:43Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > That’s how I say it and how people in my family say it (also we’re actually from there, so…yeah). You are from Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/25 "2010-05-10T19:57:24Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > :dubious: :smack: > > You don’t give your real location, so maybe it’s Under A Rock, but I don’t think I have gone a week without speaking to someone who was born in another country in the last 30 years. OK. You are not part of the “most of us” I was speaking of. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/26 "2010-05-10T20:20:37Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > People have bitched at him for saying it the right way? Yes, actually. During the campaigns in 2008, along with all the OTHER silly tiny things the so-called “liberal” media called Obama out on, he got called on his supposedly snooty, unAmerican pronunciation of Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/27 "2010-05-10T20:38:36Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > People have bitched at him for saying it the right way? > > “Afghani” is another good one. I laughed a couple of years ago at a headline called “Afghans take to the hills.” I just thought it was funny as shit, imagining all of these blankets lumping up and shuffling off to the hills. But I got lectured, saying that all Americans and Westerners and indeed Afghanis and Indians ALL called them Afghans and that Afghans was the only correct term! > > Now, I am no linguist. It could be that linguistically Afghan is the correct term (but by whose rules, I wonder?) That doesn’t change the fact that every Afghani I have ever known has called themselves Afghani, and all of the Indians and Pakistanis I know also do. > > It’s the lecturing and the “I know better than you” attitude that bothers me. No, you don’t, not necessarily! Afghan is indeed the correct term; BUT for Pashtuns whatever their nationality. Afghani means citizen of Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/28 "2010-05-10T20:45:26Z")
> [@xash](#): > > The actual pronunciation of the T in PakisTan is different from how any American says it. There are two “T” sounds written in the Urdu Nastaliq script, and the “T” sound in Pakistan is the first of them. It’s the fourth letter of the Urdu alphabet. By itself, it looks like a broad shallow U with two dots above it. This is a soft T sound, and we pronounce it in Urdu by putting the tip of the tongue just behind the teeth. The other T is the one that’s usually more difficult for non-natives; for that one you have to put the tip of your tongue up on the top part of your hard palate and kind of flip it forward as you say the T. Interestingly (and this is really subtle for foreigners) you can often tell higher-education accents from those with lower education because the hard T is much more common in native Urdu speakers with less education speaking English than is a softer T. If you look at “Pakistan” in a Nastaliq script, that “T” sound is near the left, represented by two little dots and some or all of the full letter depending on how fluidly the whole script has been combined. Here the left side is higher; that’s the “ah” sound addition right before the terminal “n” (noon) sound–the big U with the single dot. (Recall that in Urdu we read right to left…) پاکستان ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/29 "2010-05-10T21:15:51Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > OK. You are not part of the “most of us” I was speaking of. I’m wondering if you’re part of most of us. Where do you live? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/30 "2010-05-10T21:20:19Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yes, actually. During the campaigns in 2008, along with all the OTHER silly tiny things the so-called “liberal” media called Obama out on, he got called on his supposedly snooty, unAmerican pronunciation of Pakistan. It _is_ snooty and un-American, whether it’s Obama or a reporter on NPR. He knows very well how 99% of Americans pronounce it, and it’s nothing like “Pocky-stahn”. It’s putting on airs. I bet he didn’t pronounce it that way when he was speaking to the NAACP. When I hear the president of Pakistan pronounce “America” as “Amedica” I don’t assume he knows nothing about America. I just assume he’s a guy from Pakistan who speaks with an accent. Do we apply a higher standard to Americans? Why? Are we supposed to be smarter? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/31 "2010-05-10T21:25:43Z")
**Tom Tildrum** said: > [@](#): > > This sort of differential pronunciation is widespread. One parallel that leaps to mind is the American pronunciation of “France.” You think Americans pronounce France funny, what about Germany. Americans say _Ger’ muhn ee_ Germans say _Deutschland_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/32 "2010-05-10T21:30:42Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > It _is_ snooty and un-American, whether it’s Obama or a reporter on NPR. He knows very well how 99% of Americans pronounce it, and it’s nothing like “Pocky-stahn”. It’s putting on airs. I bet he didn’t pronounce it that way when he was speaking to the NAACP. That’s about the silliest thing I’ve ever read here. Seriously. I didn’t understand then and still don’t why Obama’s pronunciation of Pakistan is such a hot-button. Do you have to pronounce English like a back-country hick to be a real American? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/33 "2010-05-10T21:31:18Z")
I heard Tom Twetten, formerly a major CIA officer in the region, speak last winter. Invariably he referred not only to \*Pockeeston, \*but to the _Pockeeston Tahleebon._ ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/34 "2010-05-10T21:58:39Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > **Tom Tildrum** said: > > You think Americans pronounce France funny, what about Germany. > > Americans say _Ger’ muhn ee_ > > Germans say _Deutschland_. > > 😃 And we call some of the Germans over here “Pennsylvania Dutch”! > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I heard Tom Twetten, formerly a major CIA officer in the region, speak last winter. Invariably he referred not only to \*Pockeeston, \*but to the _Pockeeston Tahleebon._ “…tally me banana…” ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/35 "2010-05-10T22:46:43Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Fuck. Here in America we pronounce pretty much anything that originates outside our own country incorrectly. And hell, who’s gonna complain? Most of us go our whole lives without speaking to, or even seeing, a person from another country. Um. This is a joke, right? [12.5% of the population of the US is made up of immigrants](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States)…and that’s not counting tourists, and Americans traveling abroad. Anyway. This is kind of a subjective thing. There are times when I find the “American” pronunciation of foreign places absolutely grating (eye-ran, eye-rack), and times when I find Americans pronouncing foreign names like they speak the local language eye-rollingly pretentious (people who pronounce “Budapest” as “Budapesht”, looking at you). I personally find Obama’s pronunciation of Pakistan to be okay, but if he started attempting a local pronunciation of “Afghanistan” (that “gh” sound is not a sound we have in English) I’d probably find it irritating. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/36 "2010-05-10T23:39:46Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > … local pronunciation of “Afghanistan” (that “gh” sound is not a sound we have in English) I’d probably find it irritating. ghost ghirardelli ghoul ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/37 "2010-05-10T23:48:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Do you have to pronounce English like a back-country hick to be a real American? Is this a trick question? . ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/38 "2010-05-10T23:54:13Z")
> [@xash](#): > > ghost > ghirardelli > ghoul That’s not how the “gh” in “Afghanistan” is pronounced by Afghanis. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/39 "2010-05-11T00:00:24Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > That’s not how the “gh” in “Afghanistan” is pronounced by Afghanis. I ghuess you’re right, there is a slight variation but it’s probably not discernible by Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/40 "2010-05-11T00:04:32Z")
> [@xash](#): > > I ghuess you’re right, there is a slight variation but it’s probably not discernible by Americans. Well, I’m an American and it’s pretty discernible to me. It practically sounds like “Afhwanistan”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863.md?page=3)