# POCK-ih-stan or PACK-ih-stan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863 "2010-05-10T02:01:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/61 "2010-05-12T06:36:50Z")
**ascenray** , do you have a clip of someone saying [g[sup]h[/sup]]? I’m having the hardest time aspirating a sound that starts so far back and keeping it voiced. The closest I can get to is to say ghost as, well, [ghost]. BTW, I pronounce the l in balk. I say /bɒlk/. I’ve always wondered where the /l/ went in the other words you mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/62 "2010-05-12T18:38:40Z")
> [@](#): > > this is the “hot” sound in British RP. And that mean…? 😉 > [@](#): > > As I said, your accent has merged the low vowels. To me, the vowel in lock, stock, block, etc., is nothing like “ah.” To me, the “short O” and the “ah” sounds are completely different. (And I would advise you to forget you ever heard of “short” and “long” vowels.) On the other hand, my accent merges the cot and caught vowels, which is why you distinguish between “talk” and “tock” but I don’t. Well, I don’t really distinguish between _cot_ and _caught_. I admit the l is a bit like the r for non-rhotic Brits. I kinda fades and is less pronounced than in, say, _bald_. Tock and talk sound different to me. The lk combination is kinda hard to say, which is why it fades. But it still colors the word. But maybe it’s like Minnesotans and North Dakotans saying their vowels. “He went oot and aboot.” (Out and about). “That’s not what it sounds like at all.” Um, yes it is. (In other words, if you’re not conditioned to say the distinction, you probably don’t hear it either.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/63 "2010-05-12T18:48:03Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > And that mean…? 😉 Listen to the audio clips! > [@](#): > > Tock and talk sound different to me. Even though you merge caught and cot, the difference between talk and tock for you could be the same as the distinction that CINCers make between caught and cot - [tɔk] and [tɒk]. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/64 "2010-05-12T18:50:15Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > **ascenray** , do you have a clip of someone saying [g[sup]h[/sup]]? I’m having the hardest time aspirating a sound that starts so far back and keeping it voiced. The closest I can get to is to say ghost as, well, [ghost]. I haven’t come up with a clip yet. > [@](#): > > BTW, I pronounce the l in balk. I say /bɒlk/. I’ve always wondered where the /l/ went in the other words you mentioned. I know someone who pronounces the _l_ in _caulk_ too. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/65 "2010-05-12T19:25:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Vowel mergers: > > Father-bother: If your accent distinguishes them, it’s likely [fɑːðɚ] and [bɒðɚ]. If they sound the same, it’s probably [fɑːðɚ] and [bɑːðɚ] > > Low-back (cot-caught) merger: If your accent distinguishes them, it’s likely [kɒt] and [kɔt]. Watch out now – besides the [fɑːðɚ]/[bɒðɚ] folks, there’s also us Louisianians that pronounce them [fɔːðɚ]/[bɒðɚ] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/66 "2010-05-12T19:35:43Z")
I didn’t know about that one. I haven’t had much opportunity to listen to Louisiana accents. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/67 "2010-05-12T20:05:19Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Well, I’m an American and it’s pretty discernible to me. It practically sounds like “Afhwanistan”. Yup, that’s how my half-Pakistani friend says it, too (and she has relatives in Afghanistan). ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/68 "2010-05-12T20:07:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Now do Caribbean. JFK changed the pronunciation of that while he was in office. Most thought it was due to his funny Bostonian accent. But it caught on . It was Care a be an .Then became Ca ribb ean. What is correct? Speaking of JFK, one of most cringeworthy mispronunciations of a country name by a president was when he ponounced Laos as “LAY-os”. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/69 "2010-05-12T21:49:09Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Speaking of JFK, one of most cringeworthy mispronunciations of a country name by a president was when he ponounced Laos as “LAY-os”. Hank Hill: So are you Chinese or Japanese? Minh Souphanousinphone: No, we are Laotian. Bill Dauterive: The ocean? What ocean? Khan Souphanousinphone: From Laos, stupid! It’s a landlocked country in South East Asia between Vietnam and Thailand, population approximately 4.7 million! … Hank Hill: So are you Chinese or Japanese? Khan Souphanousinphone:: D’oh! ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/70 "2010-05-12T22:34:18Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Speaking of JFK, one of most cringeworthy mispronunciations of a country name by a president was when he ponounced Laos as “LAY-os”. How is it supposed to be pronounced? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/71 "2010-05-12T22:53:50Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The American pronunciation is exactly the same as the British one. Even second generation British Pakistanis pronounce Pakistan like the Americans and white British do. It’s not a case of provincialism, IMO. We can’t be expected to learn the local pronunciation of every town, city or country, especially when it involves sounds that are unnatural or uncommon in English. The American pronunciation begins the same way, but ends completely differently. They don’t say Pakistahn over here; they say Pack-is-tan (as in, the coloring you get from the sun). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/72 "2010-05-12T22:56:10Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > IPA is easy to learn. An hour of study will bring a lifetime of joy. Or a lifetime of pedantry. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/73 "2010-05-12T23:58:53Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > How is it supposed to be pronounced? It’s a near homophone with “louse” – I’ll leave it to the experts to tweak the differences. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/74 "2010-05-13T03:56:40Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Yup, that’s how my half-Pakistani friend says it, too (and she has relatives in Afghanistan). Midway through this thread, it occurred to me that the different language groups in Afghanistan might pronounce it differently, although I have nothing to back up that this actually happens. My original assertion that that’s how Afghanis say it is based on the fact that I’ve heard it said that way by Afghanis, and that’s how my Persian teacher says it, too. Persian is very, very closely related to Dari. (Dari is often described as a dialect of Persian, although my knowledge is so limited that it’s impossible for me to give an opinion. My Persian teacher would occasionally go off on a little spiel in what was apparently an imitation of how Afghanis speak and then laugh at how funny it sounded. Also, my Persian teacher is off his rocker and once threatened to eat us if we didn’t do our homework.) Persian is also extremely similar to Tajik, one of the other major language groups in Afghanistan. However, it is more distantly related to Pashto, the other main language in Afghanistan. So they might say it differently. I’m a bit out of my depth here, so please feel free to correct me if I’m getting anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/75 "2010-05-13T07:59:38Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It’s a near homophone with “louse” – I’ll leave it to the experts to tweak the differences. I wouldn’t call myself an expert, but I did learn IPA in college. The native pronunciation is [láːw]. The s was added in French, to indicate it was three countries combined as one. Neither the French nor the Lao pronounce the s. However, when it was taken to English, the s was pronounced. This pretty much leaves the closes English equivalent to /laʊs/, i.e., the exact same as the pronunciation of the word louse. Wikipedia, however, gives a slightly different pronunciation, by pronouncing each individual letter. It comes out [lɑːoʊs], or Lah-ohss. I think the pronunciation given above is closer. Finally, the main difference between the two pronunciations I give in the first paragraph is that the Lao language is tonal, and the [a] is higher in pitch. The other difference is that [w] is a consonant, as Lao does not have the diphthongs of English. Basically the mouth closes a lot more than for [ʊ]. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/76 "2010-05-13T11:40:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Or a lifetime of pedantry. 😃 Easy there… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/77 "2010-05-13T15:50:24Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Persian is very, very closely related to Dari. > > Persian is also extremely similar to Tajik, one of the other major language groups in Afghanistan. Tajiks in Afghanistan speak Dari :). Insomuch as Tajik as a separate language from Dari exists, the term is used in ex-Soviet Central Asia ( i.e. Tajikistan and Uzbekistan ), where the written script used is Cyrillic. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/78 "2010-05-13T21:17:59Z")
**acsenray** said: > [@](#): > > IPA is easy to learn. An hour of study will bring a lifetime of joy. I’d really suggest that anyone interested in pronunciation should learn it. It really approaches nonsense to try to do without it. I spent a year in high school learning Spanish (and had better consistency in pronunciation than my teacher), but I still struggle with keeping the sounds right. You really think I’m going to pick up that a sideways horseshoe symbol means “awh” versus “aaah” vs “ayeuh” in an hour of study? 😉 **acsenray** said: > [@](#): > > I know someone who pronounces the _l_ in _caulk_ too. My response: “There’s clearly an L there, why aren’t you saying it?” **sqweels** said" > [@](#): > > Speaking of JFK, one of most cringeworthy mispronunciations of a country name by a president was when he ponounced Laos as “LAY-os”. Well, they are La-oceans (Laotians), so why wouldn’t that be from Lay-os? But that’s still trumped by “Cuber”. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/79 "2010-05-16T11:17:55Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > That’s about the silliest thing I’ve ever read here. Seriously. I didn’t understand then and still don’t why Obama’s pronunciation of Pakistan is such a hot-button. Do you have to pronounce English like a back-country hick to be a real American? I agree somewhat but he still says ‘Eye Rack’ and ‘Eye Ran’ 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863/80 "2010-05-16T18:41:03Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Tajiks in Afghanistan speak Dari :). Insomuch as Tajik as a separate language from Dari exists, the term is used in ex-Soviet Central Asia ( i.e. Tajikistan and Uzbekistan ), where the written script used is Cyrillic. Ah, okay, that makes sense. I knew that Tajik in Tajikistan is written in Cyrillic (which is crazy…but convenient for me since I can read Cyrillic better than I can Arabic script), but I didn’t realize it’s equivalent to Dari. Thanks! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pock-ih-stan-or-pack-ih-stan/538863.md?page=3)