# Poetry And American Decline. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404 "2005-09-19T18:46:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/1 "2005-09-19T18:46:47Z")
From “Horatius”: > [@](#): > > XXXII > > Then none was for a party; > Then all were for the state; > Then the great man helped the poor, > And the poor man loved the great: > Then lands were fairly portioned; > Then spoils were fairly sold: > The Romans were like brothers > In the brave days of old. > > XXXIII > > Now Roman is to Roman > More hateful than a foe, > And the Tribunes beard the high, > And the Fathers grind the low. > As we wax hot in faction, > In battle we wax cold: > Wherefore men fight not as they fought > In the brave days of old. Over many years, I have read the opinion expressed that there is truth in poetry. Do the above stanzas reflect, reasonably, the decline of American Civil Society? I am aware that they were not originally intended to, but do they reflect the current state of our Nation? I hope I don’t have to point out the validity of poetic comparisons between Rome & America. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/2 "2005-09-19T18:49:54Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Do the above stanzas reflect, reasonably, the decline of American Civil Society? :dubious: I very much doubt the above stanzas reasonably reflect anything historically valid about **Roman** civil society. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/3 "2005-09-19T18:51:48Z")
I see exactly what you’re getting at and I agree wholeheartedly that this has relevance to present-day America. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/4 "2005-09-19T18:58:16Z")
I think that, to some extent, the idea that people have become less civil to one another in the US is true. But while as in ancient Rome this was more of an issue of class-complacency, in the US it is probably more of a matter of crime investigation going from beating up suspects to honest investigations plus crime moving from organized to random and hence, the world is more dangerous to the common citizen. Personally, I can’t bring myself to condemn trial-only-by-evidence, though I will contest the desire to break up organized crime. But neither of those is really an issue of the US becoming a country of asses. I would, though, contend that being jaded pricks vs. being all loving brothers is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/5 "2005-09-19T19:00:05Z")
While I see what you’re trying to say, to me it reeks of “Let’s go back to The Good Old Days.” And we all know that The Good Old Days never really existed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/6 "2005-09-19T19:41:29Z")
Who wrote the poem in the OP, and when? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/7 "2005-09-19T19:46:54Z")
It’s Macauley’s “Horatius”, from his work, “Lays of Ancient Rome” It’s most famous for the following lines, from Horatius’ speech: > [@](#): > > To every man upon this earth > Death cometh soon or late. > And how can man die better > Than facing fearful odds, > For the ashes of his fathers, > And the temples of his gods > > And for the tender mother > Who dandled him to rest, > And for the wife who nurses > His baby at her breast, > And for the holy maidens > Who feed the eternal flame, > To save them from false Sextus > That wrought the deed of shame? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/8 "2005-09-19T20:03:06Z")
Based on what I’ve seen in this thread, Macauley was not a very good poet. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/9 "2005-09-19T20:03:25Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > While I see what you’re trying to say, to me it reeks of “Let’s go back to The Good Old Days.” And we all know that The Good Old Days never really existed. Indeed. Ask a black person how much better things were in the Good Old Days in the US, when a black man could be lynched for looking at a white woman. Or ask a woman how much better things were when she had no legal recourse if her husband raped her. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/10 "2005-09-19T20:04:15Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > I think that, to some extent, the idea that people have become less civil to one another in the US is true. For one thing, everybody thinks they’re as good as everybody else now. I’m being semi-facetious here. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/11 "2005-09-19T20:41:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Based on what I’ve seen in this thread, Macauley was not a very good poet. Macauley’s “Lays” used to be required reading in schools until like the 1950s. I like him, but I guess it’s a matter of taste. Here’s the complete Lays: [http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext97/lrome10.txt](http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext97/lrome10.txt) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poetry-and-american-decline/322404/12 "2005-09-20T14:16:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > For one thing, everybody thinks they’re as good as everybody else now. > > I’m being semi-facetious here. No, we each believe that we’re better than everyone else–_on an individual basis_. Egoism & egotism, replacing bigotry. Aren’t we lucky? :dubious: