# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/241 "2005-07-07T21:25:51Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > (banging my head on my desk in frustration) > > \< snip \> > > Man, that hurt. I got your point, but I don’t agree with it. I’d suggest that most people, with or without concious intent _do_ use the phrase in a racist manner. I’ve _never_ heard the term “white trash” used to refer to a hispanic or Asian or black person. If it was really as free of racist overtones as you and **Tom** suggest, wouldn’t we see it regularly applied to a wider variety of people? The fact that “white trash” isn’t _as_ racist as “nigger” doesn’t mean it’s not racist. I’d certainly concede that “nigger” is worse, but the test on the SDMB is “hate speech” not “bad enough hate speech”. And if it _is_ “bad enough hate speech”, I’d like clarification as to where “jew you down”, “mighty white of you”, “raghead”, etc fall. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/242 "2005-07-07T21:30:46Z")
I, for one, have never embraced “hate” as an adjective. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/243 "2005-07-07T21:30:49Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > (banging my head on my desk in frustration) > > But (bang) that’s (bang) because (bang) “nigger” (bang) is (bang) still (bang) seen (bang) by (bang) one (bang) and (bang) all (bang) as (bang) a (bang) racist (bang) term (bang) while (bang) Tom (bang) and (bang) I (bang) keep (bang) saying (bang) that (bang) “white (bang) trash” (bang) lost (bang) its (bang) racist (bang) overtones (bang) decades (bang) ago (bang) for (bang) pretty (bang) much (bang) everybody (bang) in (bang) this (bang) country (bang) except (bang) a (bang) few (bang) people (bang) on (bang) this (bang) board! > > Man, that hurt. But it’s factually incorrect. Lots of people [think it is racist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_trash): > [@](#): > > White trash (extended: poor white trash) is a racial epithet usually used to describe certain low income caucasians, especially those perceived as having crude manners or abnormally low moral standards. And in fact, people see it as racist for a variety of reasons: > [@](#): > > Some people argue that “white trash” is a racist term not because it includes the word “white”, but it implies that trashiness is the normal state for black people and thus when a white person is trashy it must be specified that the person is white. Along these lines, “white trash” people are sometimes referred to as “white niggers”, or “wiggers”. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/244 "2005-07-07T21:31:54Z")
One of the big differences between “white trash” and the other terms is that mostly white people use it. This has probably been mentioned, and I didn’t comb through all the posts. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/245 "2005-07-07T21:39:31Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I got your point, but I don’t agree with it. I’d suggest that most people, with or without concious intent _do_ use the phrase in a racist manner. I’ve _never_ heard the term “white trash” used to refer to a hispanic or Asian or black person. If it was really as free of racist overtones as you and **Tom** suggest, wouldn’t we see it regularly applied to a wider variety of people? Just because something mentions race it is not automatically racist. Anyway, we have plenty of other insulting terms for everybody else. Please allow us to keep the \*one lousy insulting term \* we only use on ourselves. Yeesh! :smack: “Lousy.” As in “infested with lice.” The only people infested with lice these days are poor people, so there I go getting all classist again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/246 "2005-07-07T21:40:37Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Two answers: > > 1. In “meatspace” (aka the real non-internet world), you certainly have a point. If I walk up to a black woman and call her a “nigger”, she would rightly be afraid of physical violence. A white woman so accosted by a black guy and called “white trash” would have less fear (although I’d argue that they would still have some fear–more than, say, “jerk” would elicit) from the word/phrase. > > 2. But on the SDMB, there’s NO fear of violence. No one is going to reach through the monitor and beat anyone, so I believe that the violence test, while useful in the real world, doesn’t apply here. Isn’t that just one answer with two parts? 😉 At any rate, while I appreciate the distinction you’re drawing here in an effort to erase the distinction **I’m** drawing, I don’t think my distinction is meaningless. That is, while nobody here is going to interpret “faggot” or “kike” or similar ugliness as a direct threat of violence rationally, I _do_ think that these words, by dint of their attachment to violence in “meatspace” (love the term!), carry a far harsher emotional weight. Recognizing the weakness of analogies, I’ll make one anyway. Calling someone “white trash” is like saying, “Yo momma so fat, when she lays around the house, she really lays around the house!” Calling someone “kike” is like saying, “Your momma died of cancer, and I’m glad of it!” It’s referencing a real-world tragedy and delighting in the tragedy. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/247 "2005-07-07T22:01:55Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Calling someone “white trash” is like saying, “Yo momma so fat, when she lays around the house, she really lays around the house!” I’m not so sure of that; it depends on context. If you, a stranger, were to call me white trash because of my economic circumstances I’d be offended. That is one of the unacceptable usages. If you, a stranger or a friend, were to call me white trash because I had indulged in some Springeresque activity I’m circumspect enough to agree. If you were to call me it and, when asked to explain, said it was because I had done something that a black person would do and it was only my whiteness that kept me above the level of a black person I’d think you were a racist AND stuck in the 19th century. Pondering the OED’s original citation, as a phrase used by slaves to describe whites doing the same work, I’m thinking they meant it as in, “We’re doing this lousy job because we’re slaves and the overseer will whip us if we don’t. They’re doing it because they can’t find better jobs. What losers!” While the context has changed, “What losers!” is still it’s meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/248 "2005-07-07T22:04:04Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Lots of people [think it is racist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_trash) Lots of people think it [is simply a statement of one’s behavior](http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu/Dictionary/white_trash.htm). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/249 "2005-07-07T22:06:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But Tom, surely you will concede that the matter is not without controversy. The point is clearly controversial. I have simply proferred my take on the matter (and would probably have wandered off to read other threads had not I first been accused of claiming it was not offensive and then had my explanation denied without refutation. > [@](#): > > In your research, did you find examples of African-Americans or Indians being called “white trash”? If so, did you explain to them that the term “white” makes no sense in that context? And if not, did you explain that limiting the term to whites is de facto racist? I have not explicitly looked to find non-whites being described as “white trash.” (Several of the anecdotes told through the years may have referred to people who were not white, but I have not grilled the speakers or posters on the point.) As to being _de facto_ racist, while I am sure that there are _some_ people who continue to use it in a racist way, today, (I have only argued that a large number, possibly a majority, have drifted from that position, not that is is never racist), I would need to know the _de facto_ situation of the term “steam shovel” to know how to answer that. Is it _de facto_ anachronistic? Obtuse? Stupid? “Merely” ignorant? Or is it an unconsidered construction that can be arbitrarily classified in any or all of those ways? (In its absolute construction, “white trash” is not, in and of itself, racist, because it _could_ be merely descriptive and no one is prevented from saying “black trash,” “red trash,” “brown trash,” “yellow trash,” or “chartreuse trash.” Its racism comes from the meanings that were associated with it based on the racial and class structures of the society in which it originated. So when those racial and class structures are diminished (or, more likely, in this case, invisible to a particular speaker), we then have to impose those racial and class structures on both the phrase and the speaker in order to bring it back to a racist epithet.) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/250 "2005-07-07T22:09:32Z")
> [@Dropzone](#): > > Just because something mentions race it is not automatically racist. Hmmmm. Good point. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > At any rate, while I appreciate the distinction you’re drawing here in an effort to erase the distinction **I’m** drawing, I don’t think my distinction is meaningless. That is, while nobody here is going to interpret “faggot” or “kike” or similar ugliness as a direct threat of violence rationally, I _do_ think that these words, by dint of their attachment to violence in “meatspace” (love the term!), carry a far harsher emotional weight. As an aside, I swiped “meatspace” from someone else–maybe Rudy Rucker or Bruce Sterling, perhaps? But I agree-it’s a great phrase! (Although very bio-centrist! What of our silicon bretheren? What of their feelings? 😉 ) I agree completely about the degree of emotional weight and your analogy is a good one. On the other hand, I’m mostly concerned here with the SDMB rules, as opposed to the real-world issues, and the rules only reference ‘hate speech’. Since there are degrees of emotional weight, if the hate speech rule stands, where is the line drawn? I don’t need a fine line, but something a little firmer than (to quote some Supreme or other) “I know it when I see it”. Certainly the emotional weight for “white trash” is negligible for most people compared to “kike” or “nigger” or “raghead”, but (to reuse these examples) what about the middle-ground examples: “jew you down” or “redskin” or “mighty white of you” or “slant” or “beaner”? If the hate speech rule stands, perhaps some clarifcation on where the line is drawn would be advised: **Veb** noted in an earlier post, people have griped about “repugnican” and “dumbocrat”-type comments. Wouldn’t some of the griping be aleviated if that line were somewhat clearer? (Note-I’m **not** asking for a “every jot and tittle” level rule–the finer the rule is drawn, the easier it’ll be to skirt it and find loopholes) but a bit of clarifiction (“race=NO!”, “religion=No!”, "political party=“Fair game”.) might be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/251 "2005-07-07T22:14:25Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Just because something mentions race it is not automatically racist. Anyway, we have plenty of other insulting terms for everybody else. Please allow us to keep the \*one lousy insulting term \* we only use on ourselves. Yeesh! :smack: > > “Lousy.” As in “infested with lice.” The only people infested with lice these days are poor people, so there I go getting all classist again. :rolleyes: Nah…The instruction sheet still comes home from grade school every time a kid turns up buggy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/252 "2005-07-07T22:18:44Z")
Proposal: We only call non-members white trash. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/253 "2005-07-07T22:20:07Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Nah…The instruction sheet still comes home from grade school every time a kid turns up buggy. 😉 (pondering, “And Kalhoun is black, right? Oh, no! I’m racist!” 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![poison\_heart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b3f665/32.png) [@poison\_heart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poison_heart)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/254 "2005-07-07T22:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not so sure of that; it depends on context. If you, a stranger, were to call me white trash because of my economic circumstances I’d be offended. That is one of the unacceptable usages. If you, a stranger or a friend, were to call me white trash because I had indulged in some Springeresque activity I’m circumspect enough to agree. That is because you know that the term really doesn’t apply to you. Privileged whites use it as a joke precisely because they know it doesn’t apply to them. Imagine if you flunked a test and your friend said “Dude, are you black?” And you responded “Ha! Yeah, I guess I am. Hehehe.” It’s a joke to you because you know it doesn’t apply. You didn’t get tracked into a miserable vocational track in a bad school. You didn’t have to drop out of school to work and help support your family. You don’t have missing teeth because your family never had insurance. In short, you aren’t part of the group the term refers to, so of course you aren’t insulted by it, any more than you would be insulted to be called “black.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/255 "2005-07-07T23:22:40Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Lots of people think it [is simply a statement of one’s behavior](http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu/Dictionary/white_trash.htm). Yeah. Like I said. It’s controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/256 "2005-07-07T23:24:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > (In its absolute construction, “white trash” is not, in and of itself, racist, because it _could_ be merely descriptive and no one is prevented from saying “black trash,” “red trash,” “brown trash,” “yellow trash,” or “chartreuse trash.” Its racism comes from the meanings that were associated with it based on the racial and class structures of the society in which it originated. So when those racial and class structures are diminished (or, more likely, in this case, invisible to a particular speaker), we then have to impose those racial and class structures on both the phrase and the speaker in order to bring it back to a racist epithet.) I find it hard to believe that a known white poster (especially an unpopular one) calling a known black poster (especially a popular one) “black trash” would not be viewed as a racial epithet. Sorry, but I’ll believe that when I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/257 "2005-07-07T23:30:07Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I find it hard to believe that a known white poster (especially an unpopular one) calling a known black poster (especially a popular one) “black trash” would not be viewed as a racial epithet. Sorry, but I’ll believe that when I see it. I agree. It’s an extremely loaded term. Think about it…who in their right mind would think it would be OK to say that to someone? It’s the “trash” that’s the real dig…you can substitute any color, and it will still be insulting. Maybe I’m just getting old. (looking over on the panel for a geezer smilie) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/258 "2005-07-08T00:44:15Z")
> [@poison heart](#): > > You didn’t get tracked into a miserable vocational track in a bad school. You didn’t have to drop out of school to work and help support your family. You don’t have missing teeth because your family never had insurance. In short, you aren’t part of the group the term refers to, so of course you aren’t insulted by it, any more than you would be insulted to be called “black.” None of those three examples are necessarily in the group the term refers to either, you know. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/259 "2005-07-08T03:13:56Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I find it hard to believe that a known white poster (especially an unpopular one) calling a known black poster (especially a popular one) “black trash” would not be viewed as a racial epithet. Sorry, but I’ll believe that when I see it. So? No one has made any claim that that would ever happen. Even a popular white poster who called an unpopular black poster “black trash” would be called to account for that statement. There is not an equivalency (except for those who believe words have no context or believe that all words exist only in deconstructionist isolation from reality) between a white using the phrase “black trash” toward a black person and a white person directing the phrase “white trash” toward another white person. The latter _may_ be a racist epithet or it _may_ be a rote phrase. Since there is no common expression “black trash,” it is not possible for “black trash” to ever be a rote phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/260 "2005-07-08T08:09:15Z")
[The article that **Lute** linked to](http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu/Dictionary/white_trash.htm) explains how the meaning has changed and summarizes with this: > [@](#): > > At the outset _Villain_ meant a villager. A citizen of a small town. _Nigger_ literally is a variation on _Negro_. All it means, literally, is that something is black. _White trash_, like\* kike\* or _polack_ or _greaseball_, is essentially an empty phrase. As reclamationists have noted, we can fill those cultural words with any content that we want. The definitions have no empirical basis, they have no foundation in the repeatable scientific world of fact. They are instead short-lived, and become more a portrait of a person’s heart, and of the culture that they live in. (italics added for clarity) **Tomndebb** , you’ve convinced me that _white trash_ is no longer a racist term. What you have posted makes sense to me. You fought my ignorance and won. (Offer non-transferable) > [@](#): > > **Kalhoun** : Actually, I’d like to see the rule dropped altogether. For one thing, it’s nice to know a person’s true colors. You make an excellent point. Having my opinioned swayed twice in one thread is very unsettling. > [@](#): > > **poison heart** : In short, you aren’t part of the group the term refers to, so of course you aren’t insulted by it, any more than you would be insulted to be called “black.” I find the term _white trash_ insulting. The term is used against people that I love. Any word that is used to hurt other people intentionally is offensive to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=14)