# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/261 "2005-07-08T08:49:19Z")
Zoe, Lute’s article reads almost like an April Fools hoax. It equates “white trash” with “kike”, which it calls an “empty phrase”. Do you honestly think that calling Zev or CMKeller a kike would be nothing more than that? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/262 "2005-07-08T13:29:09Z")
I always try to err on the side of caution. Thing is, you never know what a person’s history is, either. You could say it around the execs at the office, not knowing that someone there scraped their way up from a poverty-stricken beginning…someone who lived like that but worked their way out of poverty. Or who was raised by the kind of people you’re ripping. Which also goes for dissing blacks or Jews, for instance, not knowing that you may be ripping someone’s spouse or other relative. It’s just not cool. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/263 "2005-07-08T13:31:42Z")
For whatever my opinion’s worth, I’ll throw it in here. For me, “white trash” has nothing to do with race or class, but behavior. Paris Hilton is white trash. The day laborers I saw every day when working a gas station weren’t, nor any “poor people”. \*_dropzone_ has it right, in that it’s about context. Calling a “lower-class” person white trash is needlessly nasty and classist, though I couldn’t say about racist. It does nothing but attack the person for a situation they most likely can’t help being in. On the other hand, Springeresque behavior earns the name. Jeff Foxworthy calls rednecks people with a “glorious absence of sophistication.” I’d posit that white trash, at least in my mental meaning, indicates people with a not-so-glorious absence of sophistication. I can’t explain it more fully than to refer again to the sort of people who think going on talk shows to put their dysfunctional families on display is a good idea, and others who whore for attention by being similarly uncouth (I hate to use such a prim-sounding word, but it’s probably the best one for the idea I’m trying to get across). While I admit I probably wouldn’t use the term on non-white people, I learned it as a single term, white-trash. It’s not trash that is white, it’s just white-trash, for the same reason that a highway is not necessarily a way that is high: its actual meaning has little to do with the individual words within it. In the end, as my criterion is behavior and nothing else, I tend not to see it as real hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/264 "2005-07-08T13:37:37Z")
In a way, \*kike \* might fit because it is a word in the process of leaving the language from non-use. It’s like I called three generations of black men _spades_. I suspect the grandfather would be more offended than the father and the son would just look at me blankly, like, “Am I supposed to be offended by that? I’ve never heard that word used like that before.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/265 "2005-07-08T13:42:02Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I always try to err on the side of caution…It’s just not cool. Absolutely; you can never assume anything, including how someone will react. And I dare say that anybody who behaves as you describe, especially in a business setting, is . . . trashy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/266 "2005-07-08T15:02:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > In a way, \*kike \* might fit because it is a word in the process of leaving the language from non-use. It’s like I called three generations of black men _spades_. I suspect the grandfather would be more offended than the father and the son would just look at me blankly, like, “Am I supposed to be offended by that? I’ve never heard that word used like that before.” Also “kike” originated amongst those of the Jewish faith who trace their origins to Western Europe to differnetiate themselves from their Eastern European bretheren. It didn’t gain any real negative connotations until some North American Idiots started using it. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/267 "2005-07-08T15:29:20Z")
I haven’t read this entire thread; I’ve had a lot of work lately, and little time. So what I say might be just another “me too”: But no human is “trash.” We don’t throw away people, or send them to the dump. But there may be a difference between “hate speech” and “stereotyping.” I think I don’t have the time to go into it, but I’m sure Dopers are smart enogh to see the difference, or at least put up a good argument why they’re the same. Race, class, and cultural origins are all things which have very different parameters. One reason why we need the SDMB is that our world is indeed so complex and difficult to comprehend. I don’t think I’ve every really wanted to pit someone formally (on the SDMB). But it surely wouldn’t involve race, class, or sexual orientation, or national origin. Perhaps driving habits, but I’m just too busy for that. Sorry about my spelling. The coffee just isn’t working. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/268 "2005-07-08T15:48:14Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > But no human is “trash.” We don’t throw away people, or send them to the dump. What about new parents who throw away their babies? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/269 "2005-07-08T19:41:02Z")
We can argue until the Sun runs out of hydrogen over whether “white trash” is as bad as other racial or ethnic epithets. That is not the issue. The issue is whether it’s hateful. Who’s gonna stand up and say it isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/270 "2005-07-08T20:01:12Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > We can argue until the Sun runs out of hydrogen over whether “white trash” is as bad as other racial or ethnic epithets. That is not the issue. The issue is whether it’s hateful. Who’s gonna stand up and say it isn’t? OK so its hatefull, whos going to stand up and admit to being white trash and say they are offended. I think one of the components of white trash is the failure to recognize ones own membership in the group. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/271 "2005-07-08T20:15:56Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > What about new parents who throw away their babies? I don’t happen to know any, myself. But my wife walked into the hospital last January for an ultrasound, and the nurse said, quite matter-of-factly, “I’m sorry, honey, but your baby [a four-month fetus] is dead.” [Fetal demise] (There was no heart beat; though that morning, I myself had felt the baby move.) We had a choice. Whether to deliver a corpse, or have an abortion. Some idiot was outside the clinic. I wanted that baby more than anything I can imagine. And when I left the clinic, there was some idoiot telling me I was a sinner. He went on about abortion, I just said “Shut up, you idiot. Have you ever adopted a baby?” He coulldn’t answer. So I left him in his hyprocrisy. I asked him if he would have adopted a dead fetus, and of course, he couldn’t answer. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/272 "2005-07-08T20:28:36Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > We can argue until the Sun runs out of hydrogen over whether “white trash” is as bad as other racial or ethnic epithets. That is not the issue. The issue is whether it’s hateful. Who’s gonna stand up and say it isn’t? Okay…I will go so far as to differentiate between hate speech in the legal sense of the word and something that’s hateful. White Trash is hateful, but not Hate Speech ™. You’re insensitive if you use it, but it won’t land you in jail or get you tied up in a lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/273 "2005-07-08T20:33:35Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I don’t happen to know any, myself. But my wife walked into the hospital last January for an ultrasound, and the nurse said, quite matter-of-factly, “I’m sorry, honey, but your baby [a four-month fetus] is dead.” [Fetal demise] (There was no heart beat; though that morning, I myself had felt the baby move.) > > We had a choice. Whether to deliver a corpse, or have an abortion. To be clear, I was talking about the literal throwing away of babies that had been born live, not abortion. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/274 "2005-07-08T20:41:02Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Okay…I will go so far as to differentiate between hate speech in the legal sense of the word and something that’s hateful. White Trash is hateful, but not Hate Speech ™. You’re insensitive if you use it, but it won’t land you in jail or get you tied up in a lawsuit. I can accept that. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/275 "2005-07-08T20:44:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are touchy. Cite? > [@tomndebb](#): > > You either failing to comprehend what I have posted or refusing to address what I have posted. > Your position was, originally, that the phrase should be considered hate speech because it is, in your view, clearly a racist expression. > > I have responded with a couple of different points,\*\* some of which you have distorted in responding to what I have posted.\*\* (Bolding mine) I did that once, and not on purpose. For that I apologize. Can you provide another example? > [@tomndebb](#): > > At that time, for those speakers, the phrase lost its original distinguishing effect (black vs white). The phrase continued on, because people who had grown up where it was used continued to use the whole phrase as an identifier for a particular group of people (who were, indeed, white, but who were not being separated from other groups because there were no blacks against whom to compare them). If I indicated elsewhere that I viewed this as black vs white it was by mistake. Black vs white has nothing to do with it. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Just as people use the phrase “steam shovel” to identify a particular piece of equipment that has not been built in over 50 years and few people alive have seen one because “steam shovel” was the word they heard from their parents, even though nearly all the shovels today are diesel powered, so too, people who heard their parents refer to people in a particular socio-economic situation with the phrase “white trash” continue to use the phrase without thinking of its origins or intending to make the distinction that some whites are saved from the lowest rung of society because they are, at least, not black. I’ve been worked on many a construction site, and never heard the phrase "steam shovel’ used. What does that prove to you? > [@tomndebb](#): > > I came to this conclusion not by idly speculating what people might think, but by talking to actual speakers of the language and _by reading the actual posts_ of people who have argued that they do not see a racial connection to the phrase. In other words, beginning from an historically aware position that recognized the phrase as racist in origin, I have looked at the actual usage of the word and drawn the conclusion that for some large number of speakers it has lost its racial overtones. I assume that “idly speculating” was a shot at me? Cite? And let me get this straight. Your evidence that people who use this term do not mean it in a racist way is because they _say so_? I assure you that David Duke does not have a racist bone in his body. Just ask him. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Now, you continue to insist that the very presence of the word “white” in the phrase clearly indicates that any speaker of the phrase is indicating a racial comparison, despite their own testimony that this is not true. (And not the claim, “I’m not racist” but an actual explanation in their use in which race does not even enter their consideration–people, for example, from neighborhoods and even states where there are so few blacks (or any non-whites) that a racial component to the phrase has no meaning.) When I was a child my parents told me not to listen to nigger music. There were no blacks in our neighborhoods, schools, churches, supermarkets, movie theatres, etc. Was this a racist thing to say? > [@tomndebb](#): > > From this I can only conclude that you truly believe that a large number of people, looking at a construction site, really believe that there are some guys inside each of the digging machines, stoking boilers to make them run. I think you’ve taken a button and sewn a vest on it there, **tom**. Surely there are other conclusions you can draw. > [@tomndebb](#): > > You can certainly reject my assertion, but you have provided no reason for me to believe that your examination of constituent words is a better indicator of meaning than my examination of actual usage. Fair enough. I suppose then I suspect your methodology. Self-reporting is notoriously unreliable. And to my knowledge, my main point has not been refuted either; to wit; If you identify a group **by color** , and ascribe negative characterstics to individuals based on their **inclusion in that group** , then you are engaging in racism. Q E fucking D. If people believe that they can refer to their fellow humans as “white trash” and somehow escape the racist label because they didn’t mean it to be racist, or because of some etymological loophole, than I am here to educate them. Let me provide an example. If I am walking on a street late at night and see three young black men approach me side by side wearing hip-hop clothes, doo rags, and bulky jewelry, is it racist of me to think I am about to be mugged? iI I am in laundromat and see and see a family of poor white people come in, the children dirty and barefoot, the adults missing teeth and slack-jawed, is it racist of me to assume that they fuck their cousins? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/276 "2005-07-08T21:06:04Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Let me provide an example. If I am walking on a street late at night and see three young black men approach me side by side wearing hip-hop clothes, doo rags, and bulky jewelry, is it racist of me to think I am about to be mugged? That’s paranoia. > [@](#): > > _iI I am in laundromat and see and see a family of poor white people come in, the children dirty and barefoot, the adults missing teeth and slack-jawed, is it racist of me to assume that they fuck their cousins?_ No, and juding them as “white trash” isn’t necessarily appropriate either. The point that many of us have been trying to get across is that simply being poor does not automatically earn a label of “trash”. It seems that to the majority of the participants in this thread, it’s about _behavior_, not _wealth_ that is the determining factor. That said, if your hypothetical laundomat users have staved in chests, chances are they are indeed inbred. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/277 "2005-07-08T21:10:40Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > …if your hypothetical laundomat users have staved in chests Just a nitpick, it’s “stove in.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/278 "2005-07-08T21:52:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Just a nitpick, it’s “stove in.” [Either one is acceptable](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=staved). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/279 "2005-07-08T21:55:35Z")
Unless, of course, the one has superceded the other. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/280 "2005-07-08T22:22:08Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Cite? I would say your post #275 was a good example. (You noted that people called you touchy and I merely agreed. It was a throwaway response to your original statement. Making an issue of it, however, would tend to reinforce that view.) > [@](#): > > I’ve been worked on many a construction site, and never heard the phrase "steam shovel’ used. What does that prove to you? That people who actually work with the equipment do not tend to use phrases that may be outmoded references to former versions of that equipment. This differs from the larger numbers of people who repeat phrases without considering the meanings of the constituent words of those phrases if they happen to have been raised in an environment where the original phrase had meaning but only part of that phrase still has a related (but not identical) meaning. \* > [@](#): > > If you identify a group **by color** , and ascribe negative characterstics to individuals based on their **inclusion in that group** , then you are engaging in racism. Q E fucking D. I gratuitously deny your gratuitous assertion. There is no “Q.E.D.”, here. The fact that you approach the issue outside all context with an fairly unsupportable claim that all words in all contexts always mean exactly what their dictionary definition describes indicates that you are not paying attention to language as it is used. In order to assert that the people who use the phrase are actually “identify[ing] a group **by color** ” you should be able to demonstrate that the color of the people so identified is important to the speaker. I submit that the rather large number of people whom I have heard or read use the phrase (many of whom have posted to the SDMB) are nearly oblivious to the color of the people so identified and are particularly unconcerned with using the color word as a meaningful descriptor. Unless you are prepared to assert that no one uses the phrase steam shovel or that those who do actually believe that they are steam powered, then your “Q E fucking D.” is nothing more than an angry expression of your unsupportable belief. > [@](#): > > If people believe that they can refer to their fellow humans as “white trash” and somehow escape the racist label because they didn’t mean it to be racist, or because of some etymological loophole, than I am here to educate them. It is very appropriate to point out the racist origins of the phrase and that it may very well may still carry racist connotations to any number of hearers. I have done that very thing, myself, regarding this exact phrase. Claiming that you will “educate” someone as to what _they_ actually meant when they used a phrase suggests a level of hubris which I do not choose to share with you. * * * - The original Wikipedia article on “[steam shovel](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steam_shovel&oldid=11903815)” did not distinguish between power sources. Four months later, someone finally edited the [article](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steam_shovel&oldid=12345152) to indicate that “steam shovels” are now usually powered by diesel engines and it took an [additional edit](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steam_shovel&oldid=12953276) to even note that steam shovels are actually powered by steam. Here is a current [children’s picture](http://www.enchantedlearning.com/paint/vehicles/steamshovel.shtml) in which a monkey or loader-with-backhoe is presented as a steam shovel. Here is some guy’s [journal, dated 2001](http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:UekPEYRnH0QJ:www.indifferenthonest.com/%3Fy%3D00493+steamshovel&hl=en), in which he repeatedly refers to a steamshovel, despite the point that the likelihood of him actually watching a steamshovel at work in a U.S. city in 2001 is nil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=15)