# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/301 "2005-07-12T14:04:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cripes, the knots you people tie yourselves into trying to rationalize away your contradictions. > > I’ll believe that “white trash” doesn’t mean “white” when someone responds to hearing “A black bastard cut me off on the freeway” by asking “what color was he?” > > Regards, > Shodan No no, you haven’t been paying attention. It means white. And it refers to white people. It’s just that nowadays when people say white trash they are unaware of it’s racist origins, and therefore they really don’t mean anything by it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/302 "2005-07-12T14:58:28Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Consider these two sentences– > > “Look at that piece of white trash walking in the door.” > “Look at that piece of trash walking in the door.” > > Is meaning really beggared by the second example? Will your listener have no idea what you mean if you drop “white?” Is your vocabulary so paltry as to render “white trash” a neccessary element of it? I must admit I feel vaguely ill defending what is admittedly seen by a lot of people as a fairly nasty insult, but I am speaking up out of honesty, as I have clearly different mental definitions for both those terms, even if I try to avoid using either one. I’ve already mentioned what I consider merits the insult “white trash” (a post which, along with its brethren, appears to have been completely skipped over). It’s classless behavior, in the sense of propriety rather than social caste, that earns it. I don’t necessarily see it as dehumanizing; it’s an insult in the manner of “asshole” or “attention whore.” “Trash,” on the other hand, is indeed dehumanizing and quite vicious. I would never use it myself, as I would feel my own self worth drop the moment I did so. There’s no extra connotations as with “white trash;” it’s simply describing a person as worthless. It’s also not an insult that sees a lot of use, so it’s possible that I’m simply not desensitized to it as I am to insults like “scum.” The short of it is that, in my mental dictionary, “white trash” has different connotations over “trash,” which also have nothing to do with race or caste. Class, but not caste. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/303 "2005-07-12T15:53:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’ll believe that “white trash” doesn’t mean “white” when someone responds to hearing “A black bastard cut me off on the freeway” by asking “what color was he?” Perhaps meanwhile you’ll make do with someone responding to “A salesman gypped me at the store” with, “what ethnic group was he?” A racist etymology for a word or idiom is a fairly good reason for avoiding that word/idiom. It does not indicate that the word/idiom’s current usage necessarily reflects racist intentions in the speaker’s words. Daniel who doesn’t use “white trash” or “gyp,” but who wants to keep the distinction straight ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/304 "2005-07-12T15:55:18Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > No no, you haven’t been paying attention. It means white. And it refers to white people. It’s just that nowadays when people say white trash they are unaware of it’s racist origins, and therefore they really don’t mean anything by it. I understand the argument, I just don’t believe it. How can they be unaware that they are including race in the insult, when they are specifically saying “_white_ trash”? It’s like saying “whigger” isn’t racist. Or “black bastard”, or whatever. If you mean “trash”, you say “trash”. If you mean to specify the race of the trash in question, you say “white trash” or “black trash”, and everyone knows what you mean. If someone refers to the “yellow peril”, everyone knows it means Asians, and not some generally dangerous group of people regardless of race. If I call somebody a “queer bastard”, does that mean I am innocent of bigotry because the word “queer” originally had nothing to do with homosexuality? You folks are straining at gnats to try to deny the obvious. The bottom line is, racism doesn’t count except if it is aimed at certain groups. You want to assume that people who make racist remarks don’t mean anything by it? Fine - if I ever decide to call somebody a “dumb nigger” I will expect a consistent application of the principle. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/305 "2005-07-12T16:05:23Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Where I can be accused of racism for serving a desert called “apple brown betty.” Where if you attach the modifier “black” to a word you had better be damn sure you are being complimentary. But not “brown?” Apple brown betty is ambrosia and, were a woman of color named Betty, I would happily let people believe I invented it. 😉 > [@Zoe](#): > > Like many others, I don’t mind adjusting my language. Grew up doing it. Didn’t we all? Hell’s bells, we’ve adjusted through colored, Nego, black, and African-American as each had its years as the correct term followed by being totally wrong, though folks seem to have grown sick of it by the time African-American tried to kick out black. I tried reviving “gentleman of color” a couple decades back, figuring nobody would mind being call a gentleman, and was shocked (were people actually following my lead?) when other people actually started using “person of color;” I guess they didn’t want to be seen as sexist. (As a fat guy I prefer “gentleman of substance” over “fat guy,” though I’m no gentleman.) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/306 "2005-07-12T16:32:02Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But not “brown?” Apple brown betty is ambrosia and, were a woman of color named Betty, I would happily let people believe I invented it. 😉 > > Hell’s bells, we’ve adjusted through colored, Nego, black, and African-American as each had its years as the correct term followed by being totally wrong, though folks seem to have grown sick of it by the time African-American tried to kick out black. I tried reviving “gentleman of color” a couple decades back, figuring nobody would mind being call a gentleman, and was shocked (were people actually following my lead?) when other people actually started using “person of color;” I guess they didn’t want to be seen as sexist. (As a fat guy I prefer “gentleman of substance” over “fat guy,” though I’m no gentleman.) The thing is, I can’t believe a person with all the characteristics of “white trash” wouldn’t be insulted to be called that. I know the terms kike, nigger, spic, and slope will get me a punch in the snot locker if I use them, and I presume the same of white trash. You may not WANT to think it’s insulting, but it is. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/307 "2005-07-12T16:46:18Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The thing is, I can’t believe a person with all the characteristics of “white trash” wouldn’t be insulted to be called that. Well, I don’t recall who might’ve said “white trash” is NOT supposed to be insulting. All I know is that I have said several times in this thread that it IS insulting, is SUPPOSED TO BE insulting, and that I rue the day that it gets Foxworthied into respectability. It is a phrase one should only use when one is positive that nobody around him shares any of its associated characteristics and, as we have learned in this thread, not everybody agrees on those characteristics. Ignoring political correctness as well as common courtesy, it is a term no one should use unless he wants a punch in the nose. In other words, don’t use it. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/308 "2005-07-12T17:01:42Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Perhaps. **tomndebb** has certainly argued the point compellingly, and yet…We live in a society where a man can lose his job for using the word “niggardly.” Where Huckleberry Finn is removed from school libraries. Where a reader can write to the \*\*Atlantic Magazine’s \*\* _Word_ \*Court \* and ask whether “crowbar” is racist. Where I can be accused of racism for serving a desert called “apple brown betty.” Where if you attach the modifier “black” to a word you had better be damn sure you are being complimentary. “White trash” may have lost the specific meaning it once had, but to assert that in today’s America it has absolutely no racial connotations is to be disingenuous in the extreme. Nobody’s saying that it _aboslutly_ has no racial connotations, just that it apparently has lost the connotation for some people. > [@](#): > > \*Consider these two sentences– > > “Look at that piece of white trash walking in the door.” > “Look at that piece of trash walking in the door.” > > Is meaning really beggared by the second example? Will your listener have no idea what you mean if you drop “white?” Is your vocabulary so paltry as to render “white trash” a neccessary element of it?\* Point is, the “white” part of “white trash” has become so ingrained that it’s said automatically. Like it or not, you are to “white trash” what **Derleth** is to “hacker”. Pressing to get it changed to something else is an exercise in futility. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/309 "2005-07-12T17:18:25Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > No no, you haven’t been paying attention. It means white. And it refers to white people. It’s just that nowadays when people say white trash they are unaware of it’s racist origins, and therefore they really don’t mean anything by it. Not quite–the “white” part has simply become superfluous. It’s still there because it’s been there for so long–some 170 years–that it’s become ingrained. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/310 "2005-07-12T17:21:02Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Since “white trash” obviously is not hate speech > > [cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6331050&postcount=1) > > [cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6306764&postcount=1) > > I propose that the following terms are equally acceptable. > > Yellow Peril. > Blue-gum. > Darky. > Redskin. > Drunken Indian. > Slope. > Slant-eye. > Jap trick. > > et. al. Yellow Peril Jap trick Buddha head are all terms you can call me. I’ll just laugh!! 😛😛😛 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/311 "2005-07-12T17:32:14Z")
Oh, and Happy Birthday, **Zoe**! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/312 "2005-07-12T20:02:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You folks are straining at gnats to try to deny the obvious. The bottom line is, racism doesn’t count except if it is aimed at certain groups. > > You want to assume that people who make racist remarks don’t mean anything by it? Fine - if I ever decide to call somebody a “dumb nigger” I will expect a consistent application of the principle. > > Regards, > Shodan Sorry. Irony does not transmit well in print sometimes. Check the rest of my posts in this thread. I am the OP, after all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/313 "2005-07-12T20:11:41Z")
:smack: Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/314 "2005-07-12T20:20:39Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Yellow Peril > Jap trick > Buddha head > > are all terms you can call me. I’ll just laugh!! 😛😛😛 I assume you are Asian? It’s all well and good that these terms are not offensive to you; however, I strongly doubt that the hate speech prohibition concerns what does **not** offend. Rather, it concerns what **does** offend. I daresay we could find a Jew who is not offended by “kike.” Would that be sufficient to get it off the list? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/315 "2005-07-12T20:33:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You folks are straining at gnats to try to deny the obvious. The bottom line is, racism doesn’t count except if it is aimed at certain groups. Very close. Racist language doesn’t count for nearly as much if it’s not language that has a history of close proximity to racist violence. > [@](#): > > You want to assume that people who make racist remarks don’t mean anything by it? Fine - if I ever decide to call somebody a “dumb nigger” I will expect a consistent application of the principle. The consistent application involves looking at the history of the word “nigger,” evaluating whether it has a history of close proximity to racist violence, and responding accordingly. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/316 "2005-07-12T20:41:43Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The consistent application involves looking at the history of the word “nigger,” evaluating whether it has a history of close proximity to racist violence, and responding accordingly. > > Daniel What other kind of proximity is there? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/317 "2005-07-12T20:43:39Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > What other kind of proximity is there? Smartass! 🙂 “Close” is an emphasizer in that sentence; and if you want to analyze English as if it’s a computer language, be prepared for a Daniel-and-Excalibre tag-team assault! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/318 "2005-07-12T20:51:00Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Smartass! 🙂 “Close” is an emphasizer in that sentence; and if you want to analyze English as if it’s a computer language, be prepared for a Daniel-and-Excalibre tag-team assault! > > Daniel You are right, I was being a smartass. I doubt it would take both of you. 🙂 But since you’re here, ye of the “words mean what the speaker and audience agree”… If a speaker calls a black man a nigger and does not mean it to be racist, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/319 "2005-07-12T20:55:58Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > You are right, I was being a smartass. > > I doubt it would take both of you. 🙂 > > But since you’re here, ye of the “words mean what the speaker and audience agree”… > > If a speaker calls a black man a nigger and does not mean it to be racist, is it? Mu. Words themselves aren’t racist, anymore than a noose is racist. In your example, if the speaker genuinely does not mean it to be racist, then the speaker genuinely has not racist intentions within the word: it’s a tautology. Will the black man intepret it as racist? It’s very possible; but if he interprets the speaker’s intent as racist, he’s mistaken. Is the speaker a fool? Quite possibly. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/320 "2005-07-12T20:59:44Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Mu. > > Words themselves aren’t racist, anymore than a noose is racist. In your example, if the speaker genuinely does not mean it to be racist, then the speaker genuinely has not racist intentions within the word: it’s a tautology. > > Will the black man intepret it as racist? It’s very possible; but if he interprets the speaker’s intent as racist, he’s mistaken. > > Is the speaker a fool? Quite possibly. > > Daniel If words themselves are not racist, is not a prohibition against “hate speech” incoherent? Is it not a _de facto_ assumption that certain words **necessarily** have a specific meaning attached to them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=17)