# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/341 "2005-07-13T16:29:30Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I’m saying that the TPTB decided a specific rule was needed for hate speech, for reasons stated above, because “don’t be a jerk” is too vague. The hell…? Well then, we need a rule for proper grammar too, because “don’t be a jerk” doesn’t cover that. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/342 "2005-07-13T16:29:31Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > You persist in showing a simplistic understanding of how language works, treating words as if they either have meanings discovered by archeologists or else have no meaning at all. Neither view is correct. > > Daniel If that was a shot, it scored; not for it’s accuracy but for it’s venom. My “simplistic” understanding is your “words mean what I say they mean unless they don’t.” Read my posts again and see if I ascribe to your false dilemma. I expected better from you. Good day. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/343 "2005-07-13T16:37:38Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If that was a shot, it scored; not for it’s accuracy but for it’s venom. My “simplistic” understanding is your “words mean what I say they mean unless they don’t.” Read my posts again and see if I ascribe to your false dilemma. > > I expected better from you. Good day. Sorry to offend you; I really didn’t mean to. I don’t think you’re simplistic, but I’m really having trouble understanding what position you take, if it’s not subscribing to that admittedly false dilemma. As such, your position seems simplistic to me. If you don’t subscribe to that false dilemma, can you lay out your theory of the derivation of meaning of words? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/344 "2005-07-13T16:41:43Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Although it is unclear to me how banning hate speech avoids the question of racist intentions. Granted, It’s not perfect, but what you propose would certainly create more work for TPTB, not to mention more clutter in The Pit and the probably overtaxing of the hamsters. > [@](#): > > _Give me one example of a poster using hate speech that could not be addressed using the jerk rule. Its very vagueness is what gives it power._ There’s such a thing as being _too_ vague. Sure, it coveres hate speech but I can see someone coming in, saying “nigger” as a perjoritive, and claiming ignorance when informed that such behavior falls under the “don’t be a jerk” rule. Having a specific rule for hate speech avoids that. > [@Liberal](#): > > Well then, we need a rule for proper grammar too, because “don’t be a jerk” doesn’t cover that. Only if improper grammar becomes a bannable offense. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/345 "2005-07-13T16:48:35Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Only if improper grammar becomes a bannable offense. My point exactly. The so-called hate speech rule was not a necessary rule, but merely a rule to cover a whim. It is like making tobacco illegal, and thereby creating a whole new crime. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/346 "2005-07-13T16:55:14Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The so-called hate speech rule was not a necessary rule, but merely a rule to cover a whim. It’s redundant, yes, but I don’t agree that it wasn’t necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/347 "2005-07-13T17:06:07Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > It’s redundant, yes, but I don’t agree that it wasn’t necessary. I suppose you’re right. Someone needs to protect the feelings of the white trash fundies. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/348 "2005-07-13T18:22:55Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I suppose you’re right. Someone needs to protect the feelings of the white trash fundies. Oh, wait… Oh, wait, no they don’t, because they’ve not been the target of a campaign of violence directed at them for being white fundamentalists and accompanied by racial/religious epithets. Oh, wait indeed. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/349 "2005-07-13T21:26:54Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Oh, wait, no they don’t, because they’ve not been the target of a campaign of violence directed at them for being white fundamentalists and accompanied by racial/religious epithets. Oh, wait indeed. > > Daniel Actually, contemporary violence against Christians for nothing more than their religion, complete with epithets, is commonplace in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa. Feel free to search Human Rights Watch. Unless you advocate some sort of Americentric morality, and do not count people and events outside the US, it is unclear why we should dismiss or trivialize their plight. Nor is it clear why an examination of history should exclude Christians from ancient Rome to the recently deceased Soviet Union, not to mention violence against Catholics in our own country, carried out for decades by the Ku Klux Klan. Moreover, it is not clear why a history of violence is a criterion for so-called hate speech, since speech cannot bruise anyone — especially on an anonymous international message board. But indeed if hatred were the criterion for hate-speech, as a reasonable person might suspect it would be, it is hard to conceive a more hated class on this board than white fundamentalists. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/350 "2005-07-13T21:36:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Actually, contemporary violence against Christians for nothing more than their religion, complete with epithets, is commonplace in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa. You’ve mentioned this before. I suspect that, as before, you’ll fail to link this to the hate speech in question–specifically, that the word “fundie” has ever been used in conjunction with this violence. Therefore, this violence is irrelevant to the distinction I’m drawing. > [@](#): > > Nor is it clear why an examination of history should exclude Christians from ancient Rome to the recently deceased Soviet Union, not to mention violence against Catholics in our own country, carried out for decades by the Ku Klux Klan. Same thing. > [@](#): > > Moreover, it is not clear why a history of violence is a criterion for so-called hate speech, since speech cannot bruise anyone — especially on an anonymous international message board. I have given my reasons above in this thread. If those reasons are not clear, please quote them and show me why you think they are not clear. > [@](#): > > But indeed if hatred were the criterion for hate-speech, as a reasonable person might suspect it would be, it is hard to conceive a more hated class on this board than white fundamentalists. On the contrary, it’s absurdly easy: -The incoherent -Racists -Michael Moore fans -John Birchers -Cecil Adams haters -Nazis -Stalinists White fundamentalists are hardly hated on this board. Nor, again, is hatred of them on this board linked to real-world violence against them (unless you propose that **Scott Plaid** , when not online, is in Sudan killing Christian babies). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/351 "2005-07-13T22:16:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Scott Plaid, when not online, is in Sudan killing Christian babies Too long for a band name. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/352 "2005-07-14T00:04:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Too long for a band name. Lyrics for a speed-metal song? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/353 "2005-07-14T12:52:51Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > You’ve mentioned this before. I suspect that, as before, you’ll fail to link this to the hate speech in question–specifically, that the word “fundie” has ever been used in conjunction with this violence. Therefore, this violence is irrelevant to the distinction I’m drawing. Yeah, you’ve said that before. Even then, it was unclear why you expected Chinese thugs might shout English words at Christians. But this time, your requirement was different. You cited no specific epithet, but merely epithets in general. > [@](#): > > Same thing. You know, quite honestly the fact that you want documentation of some specific act of violence by a person screaming “Fundie!” in mid-swing is imbecilic in its conception. Hate is not always expressed with a fist, especially by cowards like [this](http://thewaronfaith.com/wtf_angry_atheists.htm) [guy](http://thewaronfaith.com/wtf_patriotism.htm). If you can present a compelling argument that he and his ilk do not hate the object of their dehumanizing derision, please present it. > [@](#): > > I have given my reasons above in this thread. If those reasons are not clear, please quote them and show me why you think they are not clear. I saw no reasons, only declarations like, "As far as I’m concerned, a term ought to be banned as hate-speech when it’s got a solid history of being used in conjunction with violence directed against the target of the term. And “While I’m sure there’s been at least one person who’s been beat up for being “white trash,” I’m guessing the violence associated with the word is far less than the violence associated with the word “nerd” or “dork”.” You attempted to draw some arbitrary distinction, and the only reason I can find is basically that your distinction suits you, as opposed to Fenris’s distinction, which suits him. > [@](#): > > White fundamentalists are hardly hated on this board. Nor, again, is hatred of them on this board linked to real-world violence against them (unless you propose that **Scott Plaid** , when not online, is in Sudan killing Christian babies). Perhaps you perceive no hatred because you are not the object of it. Empathy is not exactly your strong suit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/354 "2005-07-14T15:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps you perceive no hatred because you are not the object of it. Empathy is not exactly your strong suit. Fuck off, dude. You’re not one to talk, except of course you do. Until I read this lame and shitty little insult of yours, I was prepared to address your points; but I see the old Lib is back. So fuck off. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/355 "2005-07-14T16:01:30Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Fuck off, dude. You’re not one to talk, except of course you do. Until I read this lame and shitty little insult of yours, I was prepared to address your points; but I see the old Lib is back. So fuck off. > > Daniel I’m afraid that old dog don’t hunt no more. I no longer seek your respect. Maybe you should become the example of what you believe other people should be. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/356 "2005-07-14T16:08:25Z")
Yeah, you’re right–scratch that. I forget at times that you’re pathologically self-centered, and are incapable of seeing the world beyond yourself; you therefore view my lack of empathy toward your petulant martyr-pose as a lack of empathy toward everyone. Why argue with the insane? Of course, if you read around, you’ll find that you’re in a minority in viewing me as lacking empathy; on the contrary, in the past week I’ve been held up by a couple of posters as the poster-child of empathy. But of course, your pathological self-centeredness prevents you from doing so, and so you post those beautiful ironies of yours. There you go; enjoy the last word. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/357 "2005-07-14T17:24:31Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I forget at times that you’re pathologically self-centered, and are incapable of seeing the world beyond yourself As far as I can determine, that’s the recipe for a good libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/358 "2005-07-15T14:35:44Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > (unless you propose that **Scott Plaid** , when not online, is in Sudan killing Christian babies) You monster! You absolute creep. You-(The post continues for quite a long time, using cut and pastes from a lot of pit threads I read over. Finally, it concludes with the following:) How dare you reveal how I spend my free time? What have you done, hired a private investigator? How dare you breach my privacy like this? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/359 "2005-07-15T20:05:15Z")
Lots of good and not so good points made by for both sides of this issue. l **eleanorigby** ’s thoughts on the subject mirror mine… > [@eleanorigby](#): > > … If a black person is yelling across the grocery store at the top of their lungs–they are acting trashy. The term “black trash” isn’t really used-probably (and sadly) because there are so many other perjoratives to choose from. I have certainly thought the term in reference to the above situation (which is happening with increasing frequency)–but here’s the deal: I don’t think that the above person is yelling in the grocery store BECAUSE of the color of their skin. > > I think they are yelling because they have been raised in a barn and don’t know how to act. (raised in a barn is another slam to our hinterlands-shall we remove that one, too?). So, I consider that person trashy, but their race has nothing to do with it. > > If I heard a white person do the same thing–I would think the same thing (trashy) but in speaking of the incident to others, I would probably use the term “white trash”. I think this may be true because there are still people who when you say “trash”, automatically think it refers to non-whites. But again, their whiteness has nothing to do with it–it is more because noone bothered to ever teach them manners. > > This is not a screed against rural America–having been there many times and lived with folks from “flyover” country, I can attest to alot of good solid citizenry out there. Again, WT to me is an attitude, and a set of behaviors–not a racist term and not really an all encompassing class term, either. > > . I have never, nor would it occur to me, to form the thought “nigger” merely upon seeing/meeting a black person. There are, however certain behaviors that will cause that term to come instantly to mind. To me “nigger” is just the nastier term for “black trash”. Perhaps it’s because I grew up in a liberal, middleclass neighborhood where everyone pretty much acted the same. Black kids were in the minority at school, true, but to my knowledge it was never an issue. Nobody knew any different. So, it is not my intention to trivialize or invalidate the awful history of the term, just that it doesn’t have that connotation to me(in my mind) when I use it. (Well, think it rather). What I really came in here to say is that I’m just glad we’re having this discussion. I find everyone’s opinion fascinating, whether I share it or not. Oh, and I’m going to add “stinky, stinky undead boy” to the repertoire of names I call the \*\*PANUBDUDE \*\* in bed 😉 ---
**Author:** ![barracuda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@barracuda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barracuda)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/360 "2005-07-15T23:12:17Z")
I keep coming back to this thread, amazed that the argument is still on. I think despite **tomndeb** ’s research indicating that the term ‘white trash’ has lost it’s racial roots, this discussion has proven that a significant number (of Dopers, at any rate) feel the ethnic insult is still alive and strong. While ‘white trash’ doesn’t have the violent history of other racially weighted pejoratives, it still carries some weight with some people. Nobody ever said that everyone has to be equally offended. I know the Mods rule, but maybe we could put it to a vote. (I for one would like a vote on whether to ban hate speech in The Pit, but that’s not gonna happen either.) Cuda [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=19)