# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/401 "2005-07-19T15:34:10Z")
Nah. I stated, earlier on in the debate, that I perceived myself as winning debates against Bricker, since he gave up lines of arguments, and then proceeded as if he never made a bad point in the past. However, later in the same thread, I linked to a thread where a bad argument was not challenged, nearr the end. Thus, I don’t believe that the side that has the best arguments actually “won” the debate. Besides, in the same thread, I admitted that there was often no such thing as winning or losing. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/402 "2005-07-19T15:39:55Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Nah. I stated, earlier on in the debate, that I perceived myself as winning debates against Bricker, since he gave up lines of arguments, and then proceeded as if he never made a bad point in the past. However, later in the same thread, I linked to a thread where a bad argument was not challenged, nearr the end. Thus, I don’t believe that the side that has the best arguments actually “won” the debate. Besides, in the same thread, I admitted that there was often no such thing as winning or losing. Ah. A third option. Being trumped by the maestro. Things is lookin’ worser and worser. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/403 "2005-07-19T15:51:35Z")
Let me see if I have this straight. The ones for using for using “white trash” in this forum, that is. The term “white thrash” applies to a certain group of people. However, it will offend only some of those people. The ones that wear t-shirt proclaiming their “redneck” status won’t care. Appalachian hill folk, who are offended are more likely to try and shoot you then to bring suit against you. Hopefully, anyone posting here is smart enough to not to call them by the term “White trash”. So, basically, we have a term that is not likely to be used to harm anyone. True, it is a term for certain members of a racial group, but as I can’t seem any examples of it being used to harm people’s feelings, I don’t seem the harm. Besides which, most other racial terms apply to all members of a group, while this one only applies to a behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/404 "2005-07-19T15:52:34Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Ah. A third option. Being trumped by the maestro. Things is lookin’ worser and worser. Buck up, little cowboy! It’s well established that when **Scott Plaid** enters a thread, whatever position he’s arguing automatically loses. He was arguing with you: that means you win! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/405 "2005-07-19T15:57:12Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Let me see if I have this straight. The ones for using for using “white trash” in this forum, that is. The term “white thrash” applies to a certain group of people. However, it will offend only some of those people. The ones that wear t-shirt proclaiming their “redneck” status won’t care. Appalachian hill folk, who are offended are more likely to try and shoot you then to bring suit against you. Hopefully, anyone posting here is smart enough to not to call them by the term “White trash”. So, basically, we have a term that is not likely to be used to harm anyone. True, it is a term for certain members of a racial group, but as I can’t seem any examples of it being used to harm people’s feelings, I don’t seem the harm. Besides which, most other racial terms apply to all members of a group, while this one only applies to a behavior. Jesus Christ. I was joking about him automatically losing the debate for whatever side he agrees with, but this post does more to convince me that “White Trash” is hate speech than everything else in the thread combined. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/406 "2005-07-19T16:04:46Z")
Well, what do you expect? I can’t concentrate all that much on my posting when I have so many babies to kill. Let me restate what I said. Regardless of the term being racial, it harms the feeling s of no one here. Thus, there is no real harm. Anyone claiming they are offended is simply trying to use tricks to end a thread. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/407 "2005-07-19T16:07:51Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Jesus Christ. I was joking about him automatically losing the debate for whatever side he agrees with, but this post does more to convince me that “White Trash” is hate speech than everything else in the thread combined. > > Daniel It’s the “white thrash” that got to me. Brings back memories of Anna Maria Island Florida, 1978, stalking the Double Breasted Mattress Thrasher…and her cousin, the West Coast Crocheted Bikini. Crocheted Bikini. Hmmmm. Are their two more beautiful words in the English language? Plus, thanks for not reporting my subtle wishing of death in post 400. I mean, hoping to outlive someone technically _is_ wishing death upon them, n’est-ce pas? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/408 "2005-07-19T16:09:29Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Well, what do you expect? I can’t concentrate all that much on my posting when I have so many babies to kill. > > Let me restate what I said. Regardless of the term being racial, it harms the feeling s of no one here. Thus, there is no real harm. Anyone claiming they are offended is simply trying to use tricks to end a thread. That’s an interesting perspective given that my offense was noted in the **OP!** ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/409 "2005-07-19T16:12:06Z")
Fine then. I will amend my statement. “trying to use tricks to end a thread, or to use terms that cause real distress.” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/410 "2005-07-19T16:21:23Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Fine then. I will amend my statement. “trying to use tricks to end a thread, or to use terms that cause real distress.” There is really very little one can say to a statement such as that. As I said, trumped by the maestro. I suppose I will have to console myself with\*\* Lefty’s\*\* definition of victory and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/411 "2005-07-19T16:39:20Z")
That is [del]funny[/del] odd. The words you posted were: > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Since “white trash” obviously is not hate speech > > [cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6331050&postcount=1) > > [cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6306764&postcount=1) > > I propose that the following terms are equally acceptable. > > Yellow Peril. > Blue-gum. > Darky. > Redskin. > Drunken Indian. > Slope. > Slant-eye. > Jap trick. > > et. al. Sound to me like either you are arguing for the sake of arguing, or trying to sneak in real harmful terms through the back door. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/412 "2005-07-19T16:42:08Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > That is [del]funny[/del] odd. \ Sound to me like either you are arguing for the sake of arguing Well, if anyone would know, you would. > [@Scott Plaid](#): > > or trying to sneak in real harmful terms through the back door. And to whom were those terms directed, praytell? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/413 "2005-07-19T17:53:57Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Which are those again? [ol][li]I don’t want anyone posting that they’re simply in the thread to watch the fireworks. This means no posts like “::pulls up a lawn chair::”[_]No post parodies without links in the original post. Otherwise, I’m likely to close and/or delete the thread, and get royally pissed off at the thread starter.[_]Don’t say or imply that someone is on your ignore list.[_]Absolutely no hate speech.[_]No fake pittings. If you pit someone, you’re supposed to mean it. This doesn’t mean the pitting can’t be funny.[_]No pit threads specifically for telling jokes, e.g. “Tell me your favorite dirty joke,” “Dead Baby jokes,” “racial and ethnic slurs disguised as jokes,” etc.[_] No pit threads specifically to expand one’s repertoire of insults.\*f your posts are ONLY bitching about the board, the staff, or other posters, don’t be surprised if you are banned without warning.[_]Don’t post addresses, email addresses, phone numbers, or other methods of contact in order to facilitate campaigns for or against an issue.[_]Don’t wish death on anyone.[/ol][/li][quote] \*How is that relevant? If you can show me anywhere in this thread where I have suggested that one law covers everything I’ll eat your hat. \* [/quote] Aren’t you the one who said that the “jerk” rule is so strong because it’s so vague? Why not do away with all those 10 rules? > [@](#): > > _Sufficient under all conditions of jerkiness. If you will go back and read carefully (i.e., for what is said, rather than for what you think is said,) you will understand. I rather think that wishing death on someone is on a completely different level than personal insults. Focus here, **Lute,** we’re talking about being a jerk._ Different levels, yes, but still covered by the “jerk” rule. It’s _vague_, remember? > [@](#): > > _This is what you claimed– > “a more specific rule was needed to avoid those who would spout hate speech and claim ignorance when informed it violated the “don’t be a jerk” rule.” > If such a claim is bound to be without merit, why is a rule necessary to, in your words, “avoid” such posters?_ I direct you to the full wording of #8: > [@Lynn Bodoni](#): > > If the ONLY reason you are here on the SDMB is to complain about the message board, the way it’s run, the staff, or other posters, this is a violation of the “Don’t Be A Jerk” rule. I would think that this is self-evident, but apparently it’s not. So if your posts are ONLY bitching about the board, the staff, or other posters, don’t be surprised if you are banned without warning. That’s how a rule isn’t sufficient under all circumstances. > [@](#): > > - ( I still haven’t figured out how rules “avoid” anything. Perhaps you meant forestall?) Probably so, thanks. > [@](#): > > \*So to be clear, to the best of your knowledge, over the course of 6 or more years and over 5 million posts a claim of ignorance has been successful exactly **ONCE**? \* You did ask for an example. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/414 "2005-07-19T17:56:49Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] [ol][_]I don’t want anyone posting that they’re simply in the thread to watch the fireworks. This means no posts like “::pulls up a lawn chair::”[_]No post parodies without links in the original post. Otherwise, I’m likely to close and/or delete the thread, and get royally pissed off at the thread starter.[_]Don’t say or imply that someone is on your ignore list.[_]Absolutely no hate speech.[_]No fake pittings. If you pit someone, you’re supposed to mean it. This doesn’t mean the pitting can’t be funny.[_]No pit threads specifically for telling jokes, e.g. “Tell me your favorite dirty joke,” “Dead Baby jokes,” “racial and ethnic slurs disguised as jokes,” etc.[_] No pit threads specifically to expand one’s repertoire of insults.\*f your posts are ONLY bitching about the board, the staff, or other posters, don’t be surprised if you are banned without warning.[_]Don’t post addresses, email addresses, phone numbers, or other methods of contact in order to facilitate campaigns for or against an issue.Don’t wish death on anyone.[/ol]Okay, _nine_ other rules. Didn’t scroll down far enough on the Pit Rules thread. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/415 "2005-07-19T18:07:21Z")
By the way, I’m pretty sure that [hijacking threads to spread your pet cause](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6382339&postcount=97) also falls under “don’t be a jerk.” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/416 "2005-07-19T20:20:30Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > By the way, I’m pretty sure that [hijacking threads to spread your pet cause](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6382339&postcount=97) also falls under “don’t be a jerk.” Well gosh Mr. Jr. Mod…er **Lute**. Why don’t you report the post and erase all doubt? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/417 "2005-07-19T20:42:28Z")
Sure, I could be wrong about that but if I’m not…what does it say about your understanding of the rule? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/418 "2005-07-19T21:14:11Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Sure, I could be wrong about that but if I’m not…what does it say about your understanding of the rule? Well, first I would have to agree that it constitutes a hijack, and second I would have to accept your demeaning definition of something that is important to me as a “pet cause.” When I see bullshit I call bullshit. Richard Preyer years ago had an epiphany in which he realized that the word “nigger” was racist, hateful, and dehumanizing **no matter who said it**. Although it had been central to his act, he foreswore it from that point on. To me, “white trash” is equally racist, hateful, and dehumanizing, **no matter who says it**. It reduces people to labels; labels of a particularly loathsome sort: their lives are equated with garbage. For the life of me I am unable to understand how any compassionate person can defend such behavior. I do not intend to let it go unchallenged. You will have to let your conscience be your guide. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/419 "2005-07-19T21:58:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > When I see bullshit I call bullshit. Which you’re doing quite nicely here. You could have just linked this thread to the other one instead of spreading the argument over there. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/420 "2005-07-19T22:27:05Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > It may be instructive that **dropzone** and **e-sabbath** are making me grin with their racially-derived words :). Perhaps because I’ve never been, or been afraid of being, the target of violence because of my British-Isles heritage, words like “paddywagon” and “welsh” carry no suckerpunches for me. > > Daniel > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Find another phrase in English that is equvalent to “white trash,” i.e., it has a specific literal meaning, said meaning is dehumanizing, degarding and racist, said meaning was the original meaning, but now which means something else altogether. Happy Hunting! That was actually my point. I’m pretty proud of thinking of Paddywagon. It implies that all us Micks are drunk and disorderly types, getting in brawls and hauled off to the hoosegow (Anyone know the origin of hoosegow?) and today is darn near completely defanged. Despite the word ‘paddy’ being still sort of recognizable as an insult. I think there might be a few more insulting the irish terms that might qualify… it wasn’t all that long ago the irish occupied the place the illegal immigrants of today hold, Know-Nothings and all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=22)