# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/421 "2005-07-20T02:53:54Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > (Anyone know the origin of hoosegow?) [Here ya go](http://www.word-detective.com/back-k2.html#hoosegow). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/422 "2005-07-20T13:08:58Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Which you’re doing quite nicely here. You could have just linked this thread to the other one instead of spreading the argument over there. **Lute,** I have a serious question to ask you. Consider the phrase “black trash.” It fails **Lefty’s** test as hate speech in that it has not traditionally been associated with violence. It is not a catch phrase. it is simply a nasty thing to say about someone. So I ask you– 1. Would you “hijack” a thread in order to call someone to task for using it? 2. If it were reported to a mod, do you believe it would result in a warning _vis a_ _vis_ the hate speech prohibition? **E-Sabbath** –If you can show me where someone has referred to an Irish person as a paddywagon I will concede your point. I personally have never heard the word used in conversation. I suspect it is fast on it’s way to becoming archaic. White trash is always intended as a personal insult. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/423 "2005-07-20T13:35:38Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So I ask you– > > 1. Would you “hijack” a thread in order to call someone to task for using it? > > 2. If it were reported to a mod, do you believe it would result in a warning _vis a_ _vis_ the hate speech prohibition? 1. I wouldn’t hijack any thread if I’m able to link an existing thread instead. 2. No, I would not. Hate speech is intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a specific social and/or ethnic group. “(Race) trash” has no specific target because it’s impossible to establish a consensus regarding what social group is affected. Same for whether or not race is acting as anything other than an adjective. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/424 "2005-07-20T13:42:08Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > “(Race) trash” has no specific target because it’s impossible to establish a consensus regarding what social group is affected. Same for whether or not race is acting as anything other than an adjective. This confuses me. Are you saying that if I called someone “black trash” it would be unclear what race I was refering to? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/425 "2005-07-20T13:45:58Z")
A paddywagon is not a personal insult, it’s a slang term for a police van. Also see Black Maria. (Named after either a black woman or a racehorse.) It’s a racial slur because it implies that the paddys go in the wagon, being all drunken brawler sorts. Indian Giver? Welcher? Indian Giver being one of the more ironic versions, but how about those two, they directly refer to people. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/426 "2005-07-20T14:21:34Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > A paddywagon is not a personal insult, it’s a slang term for a police van. Also see Black Maria. (Named after either a black woman or a racehorse.) It’s a racial slur because it implies that the paddys go in the wagon, being all drunken brawler sorts. > > Indian Giver? Welcher? Indian Giver being one of the more ironic versions, but how about those two, they directly refer to people. Did “paddywagon” \*at one time \* have the force and intensity of “nigger?” I ask because I don’t know. Since the etymology of “black maria” is questionable I am not sure a response is indicated. Do terms like “welsh” and “gyp” meet \*\*Lefty’\*\*s test of an association with violence? Does “Indian giver?” I had been led to velieve that “Indian giver” had fallen out of favor lately, mainly due to the efforts of Native American activists. I have just been back to my post asking for similar racist terms and realize that I was not clear in my requirements. When I said “find another term like white trash” I meant a term that is used as a direct reference to a person, or to a particular group of persons as a race. If you were to consider this amendment as moving the goalposts I would certainly understand. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/427 "2005-07-20T14:44:45Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > This confuses me. Are you saying that if I called someone “black trash” it would be unclear what race I was refering to? Of course it’s clear. I’m saying that there’s no way to get a consensus regarding whether or not racism is implied. Sometimes an adjective is just an adjective. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/428 "2005-07-20T14:54:46Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Of course it’s clear. I’m saying that there’s no way to get a consensus regarding whether or not racism is implied. Sometimes an adjective is just an adjective. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. For me, I doubt there is an African American alive who would doubt racism if referred to as black trash. I have been called a racist for having a car towed that was blocking my driveway when **I had no idea who owned it**. If specifically referring to someone by their race when administering an insult is not racism, then I am not sure that you and I could even agree on what racism is. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/429 "2005-07-20T15:01:45Z")
As far as I can tell, “cracker” is a racist term for white people as a whole. “White Trash” is a term for a small group of white people. It does not slander all whites. Thus, I would have to say that an insult that refers to the qualities of a person, while also referring to that person’s race is just that. In other words, “specifically referring to someone by their race (while) administering an insult.” There is no such word, such as racism, which denotes such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/430 "2005-07-20T15:05:50Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > “White Trash” is a term for a small group of white people. And then there’s the question of which group. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/431 "2005-07-20T15:44:06Z")
Where does violence come into > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Find another phrase in English that is equvalent to “white trash,” i.e., it has a specific literal meaning, said meaning is dehumanizing, degarding and racist, said meaning was the original meaning, but now which means something else altogether. Happy Hunting! That’s what I was working from. The only difference is that “means something else altogether” isn’t really applicable to White Trash or Paddywagon. It’s just that people don’t consider the first part, the racial slur, to be hate speech. Paddywagon. Specific literal meaning. Wagon you throw the paddys in. That’s dehumanizing, degrading, and racist. That’s the original meaning. And now it just means the van without reference to race. I really can’t think of a closer analogy. Is paddywagon hate speech? Heck, it’s even a more direct slur than white trash, it refers to specifically irish people, while white trash has trash as the more direct modifier. As for Black Maria, it’s just another term for the same vehicle, not racist. Did white trash at one time have the same force as the n-word? Why are you bringing that into the definition? I have found another word with the same parts as your challenge. Admit it, please. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/432 "2005-07-20T17:10:41Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I have found another word with the same parts as your challenge. Admit it, please. Paddywagon refers to a vehicle. I am looking for a term that refers to a person or group of people. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/433 "2005-07-20T17:26:11Z")
To clarify, **E-Sabbath** , “equivalent to white trash” is the restriction that excludes phrases like paddywagon. I attempted to explain this in post 426. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/434 "2005-07-20T17:49:24Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I am looking for a term that refers to a person or group of people. How about “paddywhack”? It’s also derived from “paddy”, means “bad temper”, can be applied to a person, and is rarely seen outside of a certain children’s song. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/435 "2005-07-20T18:06:22Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > How about “paddywhack”? It’s also derived from “paddy”, means “bad temper”, can be applied to a person, and is rarely seen outside of a certain children’s song. Well gosh. I guess I am learning to that I need to be careful how I set these things up. I assumed we would understand that the term would be in general usage. I found [this](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Paddy) etymology for paddy whack. It does not seem to me to meet this condition– “said meaning is dehumanizing, degrading and racist, said meaning was the original meaning” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/436 "2005-07-20T18:08:19Z")
Eh. “Paddywagon” fits it for all relevant purposes: although it refers to a vehicle, it refers to the vehicle by way of referring insultingly to the ethnic group presumed to occupy the vehicle. I think it’s silly to claim that white trash is hate speech, but paddywagon isn’t. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/437 "2005-07-20T18:08:19Z")
P.S. It also gives a different etymology for “paddywagon” than \*\*E-Sabbath \*\* suggests. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/438 "2005-07-20T18:11:57Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Eh. “Paddywagon” fits it for all relevant purposes: although it refers to a vehicle, it refers to the vehicle by way of referring insultingly to the ethnic group presumed to occupy the vehicle. I think it’s silly to claim that white trash is hate speech, but paddywagon isn’t. > > Daniel [Paddywagon](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Paddy) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/439 "2005-07-20T18:14:21Z")
Sorry for the crosspost. That’s a fairly good argument that paddywagon doesn’t count, actually–I guess I shouldn’t post when listening to my honky tonk music. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/440 "2005-07-20T18:15:06Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well gosh. I guess I am learning to that I need to be careful how I set these things up. I assumed we would understand that the term would be in general usage. Ah, but “paddywhack” is in general usage although not in the way it was previously intended. Words do fall out of favor, you know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=23)