# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/441 "2005-07-20T18:18:42Z")
Anyone else getting the impression that **Contrapuntal** is grasping at straws? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/442 "2005-07-20T18:19:21Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Ah, but “paddywhack” is in general usage although not in the way it was previously intended. Words do fall out of favor, you know. You consider this to be general usage? > [@Lute](#): > > is rarely seen outside of a certain children’s song. Man, we really a communication problem. I’m not kidding. Did you see the part where paddywhack meant “Irishman?” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/443 "2005-07-20T18:21:55Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > You consider this to be general usage? No, I was being facetious in the face of your continously moving the goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/444 "2005-07-20T18:30:09Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Anyone else getting the impression that **Contrapuntal** is grasping at straws? Grasping at straws? What the hell are you talking about? I have discredited both paddywhack and paddywagon on the grounds that they were **never racist in the first place**. **Lefty** concurs. Neither you nor E-Sabbath have acknowledged this. Again. What the hell are you talking about? On preview. “Equivalent to white trash.” I admitted my definitiin was unclear. Would a reasonable person think, in light of this discussion, that a word or phrase that\*\* no \*\* **one is ever likely to hear in conversation** would satisfy the requirements? Come on. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/445 "2005-07-20T18:36:17Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I have discredited both paddywhack and paddywagon on the grounds that they were **never racist in the first place**. Both are derived from the same root-- “paddy”–which is an ethnic slur. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/446 "2005-07-20T18:37:50Z")
Mmeh. It’s a fifty-fifty shot on Paddy. I don’t know if I believe that etymology… speaking as a New Yorker. Sure, we have a tradition of irish cops, but as much or more so of irish rowdies. Gangs of New York were all irish. Heck, remember who the archetypical wifebeater was in Action Comics #1… Jack Kennedy. It strikes me as more of one of those words that applied to both the cops and the people they were putting in it. Not that New York cops were all that much more than protection racketeers and private armies, around that point in time. Still, I like paddywhack. Good catch! I knew there’d be good fuel in the irish. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/447 "2005-07-20T18:38:27Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I admitted my definitiin was unclear. Would a reasonable person think, in light of this discussion, that a word or phrase that\*\* no \*\* **one is ever likely to hear in conversation** would satisfy the requirements? Come on. Excuse me for taking your question at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/448 "2005-07-20T18:51:17Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Excuse me for taking your question at face value. Well that answers my question about what a reasonable person would do. The link defines “paddy,” as well as “paddywhack,” as “An Irishman.” I have provided documentation that the origins are not racist. If that fails to satisfy you and **E-Sabbath,** frankly, I’m not sure what would. If a simple assertion were sufficient to establish word definitions, my OP would have gone unchallenged. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/449 "2005-07-20T18:59:16Z")
How the heck is calling someone a paddy not racist? It’s short for Padraig. Patrick. You know, world’s most common irish name. It’s not offensive… anymore, but it’s certainly a racist term. At least as much as calling someone a nip or a wop or a spic. Those terms are racist, right? Long, long ago, the irish were considered to be… less than human. Roughly the way some people treat illegal immigrants from Mexico today. There was even a whole political anti-immigration movement generally designed to keep the irish out. Know-Nothings, and all that. I wish I knew where I could find some turn of the century NY Herald-Tribune political cartoons. (If I’m remembering the right paper) So… we settled that ‘paddy’ is racist? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/450 "2005-07-20T19:01:30Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > How the heck is calling someone a paddy not racist? It’s short for Padraig. Patrick. You know, world’s most common irish name. It’s not offensive… anymore, but it’s certainly a racist term. At least as much as calling someone a nip or a wop or a spic. Those terms are racist, right? > > Long, long ago, the irish were considered to be… less than human. Roughly the way some people treat illegal immigrants from Mexico today. There was even a whole political anti-immigration movement generally designed to keep the irish out. Know-Nothings, and all that. I wish I knew where I could find some turn of the century NY Herald-Tribune political cartoons. (If I’m remembering the right paper) > > So… we settled that ‘paddy’ is racist? It may well be racist now, but was not in its origin. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/451 "2005-07-20T19:04:06Z")
“Bloodsucker”: a pejorative term for Jews based on the medieval myth that Jews drank the blood of Christian children. Specific literal meaning: a parasite that sucks blood. Said meaning is dehumanizing, degarding and racist: implies that Jews are parasites. Said meaning was the original meaning: check. But now which means something else altogether: somebody who exploits somebody else, especially by extortion or blackmail, in addition to the parasite definition. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/452 "2005-07-20T19:07:32Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > It may well be racist now, but was not in its origin. [Webster Dictionary, 1913](http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=paddy): > [@](#): > > Pad"dy, n.; pl. Paddies (#). [Corrupted fr. St. Patrick, the tutelar saint of Ireland.] A jocose or contemptuous name for an Irishman. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/453 "2005-07-20T19:21:54Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > “Bloodsucker”: a pejorative term for Jews based on the medieval myth that Jews drank the blood of Christian children. > > Specific literal meaning: a parasite that sucks blood. > Said meaning is dehumanizing, degarding and racist: implies that Jews are parasites. > Said meaning was the original meaning: check. > But now which means something else altogether: somebody who exploits somebody else, especially by extortion or blackmail, in addition to the parasite definition. Can you give me a cite for that? Or a general time frame for it’s origin? On preview- OK have it your way. Paddy was racist then and it’s racist now. Fails the test. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/454 "2005-07-20T19:23:35Z")
“Cappo” or “capo”: a term for Jews that turn against or exploit their own people (from the name for Jewish guards in the concentration/death camps). Predates the Italian use of “capo” by a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/455 "2005-07-20T19:24:49Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > OK have it your way. Paddy was racist then and it’s racist now. Fails the test. Except it’s not racist when combined with “wagon” or “whack”. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/456 "2005-07-20T19:26:14Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > “Cappo” or “capo”: a term for Jews that turn against or exploit their own people (from the name for Jewish guards in the concentration/death camps). Predates the Italian use of “capo” by a few years. What language please? And a cite as well? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/457 "2005-07-20T19:27:23Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Except it’s not racist when combined with “wagon” or “whack”. And your point would be? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/458 "2005-07-20T19:27:34Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Can you give me a cite for [bloodsucker]? Or a general time frame for it’s origin? 14th Century. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/459 "2005-07-20T19:39:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > What language please? And a cite as well? [http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holocaust/glossary.htm](http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holocaust/glossary.htm) > [@](#): > > _And your point would be?_ [You forgot](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6386295&postcount=431) [that quick](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6387038&postcount=436)? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/460 "2005-07-20T19:57:16Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > And your point would be? Did we have a point? Are paddywhack or paddywagon hate speech? Is calling someone a bloodsucker hate speech? Is white trash hate speech? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=24)