# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/461 "2005-07-20T23:18:47Z")
This old man, he played one, He played knick-knack on my thumb; Knick-knack paddywhack, Give a dog a bone, This old man came rolling home. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/462 "2005-07-22T16:18:27Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Did we have a point? > > Are paddywhack or paddywagon hate speech? Is calling someone a bloodsucker hate speech? > > Is white trash hate speech? Paddywhack is a slang term for Irishman. I see no evidence that it is derogatory, and have provided a cite that suggests otherwise. Paddywagon refers to the drivers, not the [drunken, brawling] inhabitants.\*\* Lute \*\* provided a cite that gives two meanings for paddy; one joking, and one cotemptuous. I have a cite from Webster’s Third International Unabridged that calls it a term of affection. “Contempt” is not eqivalent to “dehumanizing, degrading and racist,” even if one were to grant that “Irish” is a race. [Capo](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=capo) I have found no cite that agrees with \*\*Lute’s \*\* definition for bloodsucker, or refutes it for that matter. I will do some more research tomorrow, unless you or he can provide me one sooner. White trash is most definitely hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/463 "2005-07-22T16:28:50Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > White trash is most definitely hate speech. Nuh uh. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/464 "2005-07-22T16:32:24Z")
> [@](#): > > White trash is most definitely hate speech. Is NOT hate speech. Unless it is said by some other ethnic group who uses it like: “Let us all gather our guns and kill the white trash!” We all seem to forget that speech is not a word, it is a collection of words usually in the form of sentences and paragraphs. I call my sister white trash all the time, I dont hate her, shes just white trash…ala Mrs. Spears. I dont believe there is any such thing as hate speech by itself, it is all in context and who is doing the talking. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/465 "2005-07-22T17:27:03Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > “Contempt” is not eqivalent to “dehumanizing, degrading and racist,” even if one were to grant that “Irish” is a race. In 1913, “dehumanizing” and “racist” didn’t exist but “degrading” did. 1913 definition for “contempt”: The act of contemning or despising; the feeling with which one regards that which is esteement mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn. 1913 definition for “degrading”: Dishonoring; disgracing the character; as degrading obsequiousness. > [@](#): > > \*[Capo](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=capo) \* Note that the mobster usage only dates to 1952. I already mentioned that it had been pertaining to Jews before that but I have no idea why it wouldn’t be listed. On “bloodsucker”: > [@](#): > > [Jewish History](http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_46_-_Blood_Libel.asp) > Jews were persecuted not only for being “Christ-killers” but as “baby-killers.” > > The first such accusation – better known as a “blood libel” – was leveled in 1144 in Norwich, England. There, Jews were charged with kidnapping a Christian baby and draining the baby of blood. The charge became so popular it would sweep, in various forms, through Europe and then spread to other parts of the world. Granted, the earliest known use of “bloodsucker” is the 14th Century but I’m sure you can see how it got applied to those who are Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/466 "2005-07-22T17:47:12Z")
Two questions for **Contrapuntal** : why is it that you agreed that Paddy is racist until presented with the idea that it becomes non-racist when made into compound words? Because it clashes with your view that “white trash” is hate speech? All you have to do is admit that you just might be wrong and we can put this thing to bed. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/467 "2005-07-22T17:48:21Z")
My point on the capo cite is that the mobster use evolved from the earlier italian word for that thing that guitar players put on the fretboard. You seemed to be saying that the mobster use evolved from the word used to describe the Jews in the concentration camps, and that it evolved (6 years later) into a different meaning altogether. The **original** meaning of the word is the musical one. I still do not see evidence that the **first** use of bloodsucker, in the 14th Century, was referring to Jews, and not leeches, for example. I submit, with respect to your cite for ‘paddy,’ that if a word can be used _either_ jocularly or contemptuously, it is unreasonable to assign the most extreme definition for ‘contempt.’ It was a nickname, for goodness’ sake. Are you suggesting that ‘paddy’ was a rallying cry for bigotry against the Irish? [Here](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=d&p=4) is a cite for dehumanize (1818 attestation) and degrade (1325 attestation). It appears that both words existed in 1913. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/468 "2005-07-22T17:51:34Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > You seemed to be saying that the mobster use evolved from the word used to describe the Jews in the concentration camps, and that it evolved (6 years later) into a different meaning altogether. Not at all. I’m saying that the mobster usage superceded the Jewish usage. > [@](#): > > _The **original** meaning of the word is the musical one._ In 1946. WWII came before that, you know. > [@](#): > > _Here is a cite for dehumanize (1818 attestation) and degrade (1325 attestation). It appears that both words existed in 1913._ Webster had no knowledge of such words in 1913 or 1828. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/469 "2005-07-22T17:52:09Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Two questions for **Contrapuntal** : why is it that you agreed that Paddy is racist until presented with the idea that it becomes non-racist when made into compound words? Because it clashes with your view that “white trash” is hate speech? > > All you have to do is admit that you just might be wrong and we can put this thing to bed. I simply agreed because it did not matter. I am looking for a phrase that was racist in origin but not today. The assertion was that paddy is racist today as well as in origin, so it fails the test. Either way my point was made. In point of fact, it can only be racist if ‘Irish’ is defined as a race. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/470 "2005-07-22T17:53:11Z")
Missed one. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Are you suggesting that ‘paddy’ was a rallying cry for bigotry against the Irish? As has been stated many times in this thread, it all depends on who is saying it and in what manner. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/471 "2005-07-22T17:56:57Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I am looking for a phrase that was racist in origin but not today. The assertion was that paddy is racist today as well as in origin, so it fails the test. Either way my point was made. The root may be racist without the compound word being so, which flies in the face of your entire premise. Can’t have that now, can you? Good luck on your quest, Señor Quixote. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/472 "2005-07-22T18:09:02Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Not at all. I’m saying that the mobster usage superceded the Jewish usage.In 1946. WWII came before that, you know.Webster had no knowledge of such words in 1913 or 1828. And my Webster (International, Unabridged) has no meaning for ‘paddy’ other than a familiar term of affection. Shall we play dueling dictionaries? There is nothing in your cite to suggest that ‘capo’ of the death camps is A) Italian or B) degrading, dehumanizing, and racist. You would also need to show that somehow a word referring to Jews in concentration camps came to mean ‘head’ in Italian. The capo is at the head of the guitar (the top of the neck); a capo is a crime boss (the head of the family.) On preview, The assertion was that ‘paddywagon’ was racist because it referred to the [drunken, brawling] inhabitants. It refers to the drivers, the police, instead. ‘Paddy’ can only be racist if ‘Irish’ is a race. > [@Lute](#): > > ]As has been stated many times in this thread, it all depends on who is saying it and in what manner. But ‘white trash’ somehow falls outside this allowance? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/473 "2005-07-22T18:15:38Z")
Miriam-Webster. Race. 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics \ I’m sorry, what now? Irish… race. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/474 "2005-07-22T18:19:52Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Miriam-Webster. Race. > 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics \ > > I’m sorry, what now? Irish… race. [Dueling dictionaries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race) ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/475 "2005-07-22T18:23:42Z")
\*\* Contrapuntal\*\* You are aware that there was a time when the Irish were considered a separate and LOWER race, right? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/476 "2005-07-22T18:30:30Z")
[Irish race](http://www.victorianweb.org/history/race/Racism.html) > [@](#): > > In much of the pseudo-scientific literature of the day the Irish were held to be inferior, an example of a lower evolutionary form, closer to the apes than their “superiors”, the Anglo-Saxons . Cartoons in Punch portrayed the Irish as having bestial, ape-like or demonic features and the Irishman, (especially the political radical) was invariably given a long or prognathous jaw, the stigmata to the phrenologists of a lower evolutionary order, degeneracy, or criminality. Thus John Beddoe, who later became the President of the Anthropological Institute (1889-1891), wrote in his Races of Britain (1862) that all men of genius were orthognathous (less prominent jaw bones) while the Irish and the Welsh were prognathous and that the Celt was closely related to Cromagnon man, who, in turn, was linked, according to Beddoe, to the “Africanoid”. The position of the Celt in Beddoe’s “Index of Nigrescence” was very different from that of the Anglo-Saxon. These ideas were not confined to a lunatic fringe of the scientific community, for although they never won over the mainstream of British scientists they were disseminated broadly and it was even hinted that the Irish might be the elusive missing link! Certainly the “ape-like” Celt became something of an malevolent cliche of Victorian racism. Thus Charles Kingsley could write > > I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw [in Ireland] . . . I don’t believe they are our fault. . . . But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much. . . ." (Charles Kingsley in a letter to his wife, quoted in L.P. Curtis, Anglo-Saxons and Celts, p.84). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/477 "2005-07-22T19:07:20Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > But ‘white trash’ somehow falls outside this allowance? Other compound words do. Why wouldn’t “white trash”? Oh, I forgot–because Señor Quixote says so. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/478 "2005-07-22T19:13:58Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > [Dueling dictionaries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race) Excuse me, but that is _not_ a dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/479 "2005-07-22T19:15:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > [Dueling dictionaries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race) [Not dueling at all.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race#Race_in_law_enforcement) Look there. W2. English-Irish race. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/480 "2005-07-22T19:21:30Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > The assertion was that ‘paddywagon’ was racist because it referred to the [drunken, brawling] inhabitants. It refers to the drivers, the police, instead. > > ‘Paddy’ can only be racist if ‘Irish’ is a race. Paddywagon is racist because of ‘paddy’. It’s a slur, if it refers to the cops or the contents. General Not Our Kind Dear reference to it. Oooh. And we havn’t even considered the Dutch. Dutch Wife. Dutch Treat… [http://www.word-detective.com/back-h.html](http://www.word-detective.com/back-h.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=25)