# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/481 "2005-07-22T19:26:00Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Oooh. And we havn’t even considered the Dutch. Dutch Wife. Dutch Treat… > [Akimbo, Sliced Bread, Dutch Uncles, Chimera, Mickey Finn and Those Pesky Oxymorons](http://www.word-detective.com/back-h.html) Don’t forget the Chinese. “Chinese fire drill” for one. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/482 "2005-07-22T19:28:29Z")
Or the [Mongols](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mongoloid). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/483 "2005-07-25T14:41:08Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Excuse me, but that is _not_ a dictionary. OK dueling reference works then. For crying out loud. With respect to race– _“The modern meaning, “one of the major divisions of mankind”, dates to the late 18th century”_ > [@Lute](#): > > Don’t forget the Chinese. “Chinese fire drill” for one. Or the Mongols. So Chinese fire drill is **not** offensive now? Also, the meaning of your mongol reference is lost on me. > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Paddywagon is racist because of ‘paddy’. It’s a slur, if it refers to the cops or the contents. General Not Our Kind Dear reference to it. > > Oooh. And we havn’t even considered the Dutch. Dutch Wife. Dutch Treat… > [Akimbo, Sliced Bread, Dutch Uncles, Chimera, Mickey Finn and Those Pesky Oxymorons](http://www.word-detective.com/back-h.html) So paddywagon **is** racist then. Glad we got that cleared up. So now ‘Dutch’ is a race. I suppose Canadians, Germans, Brazilians, Saudi Arabians, Kuwaitis, the hundreds of tribes in Africa, these are all distinct races as well? Hogwash! From your cite. _“Since we are primarily an English-speaking culture, the few volleys in this linguistic war that have survived are, naturally, those disparaging the Dutch, but even those are rarely heard today. Some, such as “Dutch uncle,” were probably originally meant to be more insulting than we consider them today.”_ So we have a phrase which is\* rare\*, and was \*probably more insulting \* originally. That’s a far cry from satisfying this requirement- > [@Me](#): > > Find another phrase in English that is equvalent to “white trash,” i.e., it has a specific literal meaning, said meaning is dehumanizing, degarding and racist, said meaning was the original meaning, but now which means something else altogether. This happened to me yesterday. A neighbor was walking his dog and stopped to chat. He asked me about and recent incident in which I had a car towed that was blocking my driveway. It was 6 Am, I had somewhere to be, and I had never seen the car before. When the owner comes out and sees his car being towed he accuses me of racism. That’s right. He’s black and I’m white, and I could tell he was black, just by looking at his car. Which was blocking my driveway, with the driver’s side nearest the curb, so he literally had to step **into** my driveway to get out of the car. When I get to the “racism” part my neighbor rolls his eyes and says, “That’s crazy man.” He then proceeds to give his take on race relations. “The way I see it, there’s good and bad in every race. There’s blacks and niggers, Mexicans and wetbacks, whites and white trash.” This kid is early twenties, white, tatoos, owns a pit bull, listens to heavy metal music, and is genuiunely a nice guy. I don’t look to him for pilosophical guidance, but I do borrow his lawnmower and he borrows my ladder. Our neighborhood is probably 30% white, 30%black, 30% Hispanic, and 10% students. The most expensive single family house is probably worth no more than $80,00. Your basic working class. I keep to myself, but a lot of the other folks have visitors of all sorts. And out of this melting pot comes a young man to whom _black_ is to _nigger_ as _white_ is to _white trash_. Not all users of the language post on the Straight Dope. It does not surprise me that someone would claim no racist intent when using the term white trash, for to do so would admit to racism. I am sure my neighbor does not consider himself to be a racist. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/484 "2005-07-25T15:18:59Z")
I don’t consider your neighbor to be a racist, not on the evidence you’ve offered. He makes a distinction that Chris Rock makes, and I don’t consider Chris Rock to be a racist; this kid may have picked up the distinction from Chris Rock for all I know. _Facta, non verba_. If he threw a rock at a Mexican kid while shouting, “Wetback!” at him, I would entertain the possibility of his racism far more strongly. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/485 "2005-07-25T15:20:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So Chinese fire drill is **not** offensive now? Also, the meaning of your mongol reference is lost on me. > > So paddywagon **is** racist then. Glad we got that cleared up. > > So now ‘Dutch’ is a race. I suppose Canadians, Germans, Brazilians, Saudi Arabians, Kuwaitis, the hundreds of tribes in Africa, these are all distinct races as well? Hogwash! No, sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/486 "2005-07-25T15:39:02Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I don’t consider your neighbor to be a racist, not on the evidence you’ve offered. He makes a distinction that Chris Rock makes, and I don’t consider Chris Rock to be a racist; this kid may have picked up the distinction from Chris Rock for all I know. > > _Facta, non verba_. If he threw a rock at a Mexican kid while shouting, “Wetback!” at him, I would entertain the possibility of his racism far more strongly. > > Daniel I really don’t think he’s racist either. He does call some people niggers, however, and that would get him tossed out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/487 "2005-07-25T17:52:39Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I really don’t think he’s racist either. He does call some people niggers, however, and that would get him tossed out of here. No, it would get him warned. Not heeding the warning would get him tossed out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/488 "2005-07-25T17:59:26Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I really don’t think he’s racist either. He does call some people niggers, however, and that would get him tossed out of here. Indeed. It’s an interesting question, and it seems to me that hate speech is not necessarily indicative of racism, and that the reason for abolishing it is not directly tied to racism (although the two are, of course, closely related). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/489 "2005-07-25T18:04:54Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > No, it would get him warned. Not heeding the warning would get him tossed out of here. O. K. The point is that the behavior woud be unacceptable because it is racist, and therefore hate speech. You knew that was the point. I know little about you, **Lute** , but I feel comfortable asserting that you must live a nit free life, inasmuch as you pick them with such ferocity. And since we’re picking nits, and I am dealing with the master of the obvious, I never said that just doing it once would get him tossed. I said that doing it would get him tossed. And it would. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/490 "2005-07-25T18:12:30Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I said that doing it would get him tossed. And it would. You implied that just saying “nigger” would get him tossed, which it would not unless he’s been here before. Nobody gets summarily banned unless they are returnees or spammers. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/491 "2005-07-25T18:30:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I know little about you, **Lute** , but I feel comfortable asserting that you must live a nit free life, inasmuch as you pick them with such ferocity. I’m a database editor. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/492 "2005-07-25T19:00:41Z")
::checks watch:: Lessee… **Contra** should return in about 18 hours. That’s no way to run a railroad. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/493 "2005-07-25T20:15:59Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > You implied that just saying “nigger” would get him tossed, which it would not unless he’s been here before. Nobody gets summarily banned unless they are returnees or spammers. When have I mentioned summary banishment?. Stop assigning positions to me that I have not asserted. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6387183&postcount=447) you insist on a strict, narrow, extremely **literal** interpretation of my words. Now you are content to accept what I might have **implied**. When you are not being sarcastic, you are debating dishonestly, shifting terms and definitions to suit your fancy. Please engage me with respect and honesty or stop wasting my time. > [@](#): > > Lessee…Contra should return in about 18 hours. That’s no way to run a railroad. I do not own a computer. I use a friend’s machine, or a public one when I can gain access. The necessities of my life do not allow me a surfeit of idle time online. You have told me that ‘white trash’ is not racist because it does not refer to all whites, and “it is impossible to establish a consensus” as to who is the target. I have shown you an example of someone who uses the word ‘nigger’ to refer to _some_ blacks, not all. The group is easily as undefined as ‘white trash.’ You have conceded that such a reference, if repeated, would violate the hate speech rule and result in banishment. Now tell me again why ‘nigger’ is racist and ‘white trash’ is not. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/494 "2005-07-25T20:46:49Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Please engage me with respect and honesty or stop wasting my time. Hello? This whole fucking thread is a waste of time! Why do you think I’ve been referring to you as Señor Quixote? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/495 "2005-07-25T20:51:22Z")
Okay, okay, I’ll be serious. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Now tell me again why ‘nigger’ is racist and ‘white trash’ is not. “Nigger” has a history of being used against _all_ blacks. “White trash” does not have a history of being used against all whites. Not to mention the associated violence, and lack of it, that was brought up earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/496 "2005-07-25T21:12:45Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6387183&postcount=447) you insist on a strict, narrow, extremely **literal** interpretation of my words. Not just any words but words which form a question. > [@](#): > > Now you are content to accept what I might have **implied**. In a statement that, taken as written, suggests one utterance of the word “nigger” would result in being banned without warning. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/497 "2005-07-25T21:30:32Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Hello? This whole fucking thread is a waste of time! Why do you think I’ve been referring to you as Señor Quixote? Why don’t you just piss off, then? > [@](#): > > Not just any words but words which form a question. Incoherent as stated. > [@](#): > > In a statement that, taken as written, suggests one utterance of the word “nigger” would result in being banned without warning. Yep. ‘Suggest’ is a synonym for ‘imply.’ Simply restating your premise with different words is hardly an argument. Show where I have said “one utterance” would result in banishment. Show where I have mentioned “summary banishment.” Or just shut the fuck up. You goddamned racist apologist. Take your tiny bruised ego and join your fellow bigots, content to elevate yourselves above your fellow humans and and point to the gap with glee. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/498 "2005-07-25T23:26:45Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Why don’t you just piss off, then? Because this trainwreck is so fun to watch. 😉 > [@](#): > > _Yep. ‘Suggest’ is a synonym for ‘imply.’ Simply restating your premise with different words is hardly an argument. Show where I have said “one utterance” would result in banishment. Show where I have mentioned “summary banishment.”_ You did so by omission. “He does call some people niggers, however, and that would get him tossed out of here.” I was pointing out that this would not happen right away, if at all. > [@](#): > > _Or just shut the fuck up. You goddamned racist apologist. Take your tiny bruised ego and join your fellow bigots, content to elevate yourselves above your fellow humans and and point to the gap with glee._ Has anyone checked you for rabies recently? You seem to be frothing at the mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/499 "2005-07-25T23:35:15Z")
For the record, I have a nephew who is half white/half black. I have witnessed him called “nigger” by an idiot kid who lived next door. “Racist apologist” my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/500 "2005-07-26T00:40:16Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > You did so by omission. Hmm…on second thought, I think “by being unspecific” works better than “by omission”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=26)