# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/61 "2005-07-05T18:09:39Z")
I thought Eurotrash was specifically stuck-up rich Europeans who listen to bad German techno and refuse to learn the local customs of whatever country they’re visiting. Finally, making assumptions based on skin color makes you look like a moron. Cut it out. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/62 "2005-07-05T18:09:46Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > So, am I like one of those self-hating whites? i have no idea what this means. > [@Binarydrome](#): > > Seriously? I might be willing to discuss the possibility that I have some class issues to work out (though I would need to have that conversation with someone smarter than you), but in this case to call me a racist is really sort of stupid. You identified a group by color (white) and described them pejoratively (there is something just inherently contemptible and hilarious about the antics of the aforementioned group) as a group. The very definition of racist. > [@Binarydrome](#): > > Also, you never answered my question as to why this whole issue seems to be such a big deal to you. If white trash is not hate speech, then neither is stupid darky. If we are to have a rule about hate speech, then white trash qualifies. I am offended by what I see as inconsistent application of the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/63 "2005-07-05T18:10:26Z")
Just so we’re on the same page, can you flag which sentences you personally believe in? ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/64 "2005-07-05T18:12:27Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Just so we’re on the same page, can you flag which sentences you personally believe in? Are you asking me? From which post? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/65 "2005-07-05T18:12:38Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > \*No offence intended to the Douche Bag Americans™. I am referring to specific behavior, and do not intend disrespect to actual sentient feminine hygiene products who may be reading this post. None taken. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/66 "2005-07-05T18:14:34Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Since “white trash” obviously is not hate speech > et. al. I agree with **Contrapuntal** here. “White trash” is “hate speech” and racist as “nigger” is. I don’t know how many times I have heard a (non-self admitted) racist explain to ne “Well, I only use 'nigger” to refer to the _bad ones,_ not the \*good \*coloured people." :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: As in this post by Sampiro in the PIT, when Sampiro relates much the same story as I just did. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6317862](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6317862) ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/67 "2005-07-05T18:16:03Z")
\*\* Contrapuntal \*\* The problem you have is that your terms aren’t analogous. Every term you use to “prove” that White Trash is hate speech, is based on descriptions that white people use to call others and not themselves. White Trash originated differently than the others. So let me ask you, is the term “high yella”, hate speech? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/68 "2005-07-05T18:16:50Z")
Post #32. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/69 "2005-07-05T18:17:09Z")
**Contrapuntal** , what specifically would you like the hate speech rule to be, if anything? If we don’t warn people for using the phrase “white trash”, do you think we should allow any and all racial epithets? Ever read unmoderated Usenet/Yahoo Groups? If we add “white trash” to the list of hate speech, what about other terms which disparage a group of people, e.g. hick, hillbilly, fatty, retard, etc.? Should we add those too? While complaints about the unfairness of the current rules are fine, specific suggestions for improvements are far more constructive. ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/70 "2005-07-05T18:17:17Z")
I’ve been called a lot of things in my time. I have never. Ever. EVER. Been accused of racism. Someone mentioned earlier Chris Rock’s use of the word “nigger.” Like he said, there’s white people and white trash, black people and “niggers.” It’s a distinction between people with class and people without class. I’ve met wealthy, privileged white kids who were pure trash. And there are poor people who have far more class than I. Now. I don’t use the word “nigger” unless I’m quoting Richard Pryor or analyzing it, like now. Somehow, I don’t feel entitled to it. But I know white trash when I hear it see it’s behavior. Key word: behavior. Not race. It’s a distinction between people who have respect and manners and those who go into a nice Italian restaurant, loudly complain to the staff and management that the music isn’t Italian enough (even though it’s Frank Sinatra) and loudly (and with poor grammar) announce that no one is getting a “Goddamn tip until someone finds something more Italian.” Anecdote courtesy of a piece of white trash in downtown Nashville. I’m not sorry I said it. Oh, and among the great things I’ve been called before I was once called “uncivilized.” Because I was rowdy at a college basketball game. Against a top-ten conference rival. Of course, the girl who said this only came to see her friend sing the national anthem (he nailed it, too). Alas, to some I am certainly a boor. And a bore. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/71 "2005-07-05T18:18:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yeah, those sixth generation welfare hicks living in hovels without electricity or plumbing in the mountains of Kentucky sure had all the breaks, and blew it. Now now… Binarydrone doesn’t make the “facts”, he just reports them. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/72 "2005-07-05T18:24:02Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > **Contrapuntal** , what specifically would you like the hate speech rule to be, if anything? If we don’t warn people for using the phrase “white trash”, do you think we should allow any and all racial epithets? Ever read unmoderated Usenet/Yahoo Groups? If we add “white trash” to the list of hate speech, what about other terms which disparage a group of people, e.g. hick, hillbilly, fatty, retard, etc.? Should we add those too? > > While complaints about the unfairness of the current rules are fine, specific suggestions for improvements are far more constructive. This is the only board I read with any regularity, so I have no idea how the ones you mention operate. I suppose if the issue is too complicated to delineate, then there should be no rule against hate speech. Let the marketplace of ideas control it. P.S. Scott Plaid has disagreed with me for “all the reasons stated already.” I hereby declare victory. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/73 "2005-07-05T18:27:46Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Post #32. OK, Last try: It is my belief that there is an inherent advantage to being born white in this country. We can talk about this if you want, but everything that I have seen leads me to believe that this is true. In other words, if you were to take two people, one black and one white, from the same socio economic background, it is my belief that over time you would see the white person’s “lot in life” be better. If nothing else, they would probably get pulled over a lot less. It is further my belief that there is an identifiable group (call it whatever fucking sensitive term that you want) which is the subject of this very thread. Now, if this boils down to the "contemptible and hilarious " comment well I guess that I stand by it. Some of the stuff that you see (I am thinking Cops or Springer) is just funny as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/74 "2005-07-05T18:29:35Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > \*\* Contrapuntal \*\* The problem you have is that your terms aren’t analogous. Every term you use to “prove” that White Trash is hate speech, is based on descriptions that white people use to call others and not themselves. White Trash originated differently than the others. It isn’t clear to me why the etymology of the term is significant. Can you elaborate? > [@holmes](#): > > So let me ask you, is the term “high yella”, hate speech? No, but for the sake of the argument, “high yella trash” would be. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/75 "2005-07-05T18:29:53Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I suppose if the issue is too complicated to delineate, then there should be no rule against hate speech. Let the marketplace of ideas control it. So, just to make sure I’m clear, your opinion is not that “white trash” should be hate speech, but that the hate speech rule should be revoked and any and all racial slurs should be allowed? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/76 "2005-07-05T18:32:34Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > **Contrapuntal** , what specifically would you like the hate speech rule to be, if anything? If we don’t warn people for using the phrase “white trash”, do you think we should allow any and all racial epithets? Ever read unmoderated Usenet/Yahoo Groups? If we add “white trash” to the list of hate speech, what about other terms which disparage a group of people, e.g. hick, hillbilly, fatty, retard, etc.? Should we add those too? > > While complaints about the unfairness of the current rules are fine, specific suggestions for improvements are far more constructive. If any racial terms are banned, they all should be. " hick, hillbilly, fatty, retard" are not _racial_ terms, note. It’s a tough call between banning all racial insults or none. I’d say _all_, but either works. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/77 "2005-07-05T18:36:11Z")
[the origins of ‘poor white trash’](http://plateaupress.com.au/wfw/redneck.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/78 "2005-07-05T18:37:31Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > \P.S. > Scott Plaid has disagreed with me for “all the reasons stated already.” I hereby declare victory. 🙂 :dubious: That didn’t work in [Should we support the mutant registration act?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=322160), or [Dick Durbin says sorry - will those who supported his comments say sorry too?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=322186),and it isn’t going to work now! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/79 "2005-07-05T18:39:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Scott Plaid has disagreed with me for “all the reasons stated already.” I hereby declare victory. Well, that proabably works if you wish to associate yourself with **Scott** ’s _method_ of argumentation. 😉 * * * As to the term: White trash clearly began life as a racist term. (We’ve discussed this point numerous times, previously.) However, it has been taken into the language by so many people with no understanding of its racist roots that, while is remains classist and insulting, it has pretty well lost its racist connotations in many parts of the country. Is it “hate speech”? I dunno. One reason I avoid moderating the **Pit** is that I can censor insulting language in **GD** without having to split all the hairs down to discover the _category_ of the insult. The Admins and **Pit** mods will have to rule on the acceptability of “white trash” in the **Pit** , but if you are arguing “hate speech” as a function of the “racist” nature of the phrase, I am afraid that you lost that debate around 40 - 50 years ago when, having come up out of the South with the industrial migration, it began being used throughout the Great Lakes region and the West with no racial connotations associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/80 "2005-07-05T18:39:28Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > So, just to make sure I’m clear, your opinion is not that “white trash” should be hate speech, but that the hate speech rule should be revoked and any and all racial slurs should be allowed? We have a rule forbidding hate speech which says simply “Absolutely no hate speech,” with no further explanation. I assume everything not forbidden is allowed. If here is such a thing as hate speech, then “white trash” certainly qualifies, in my mind; but by being allowed in the Pit it is sanctioned otherwise. This idea that people are putting forth that “white” is just a modifier for “trash” is ridiculous. If it is too dificult to make a judgement call, then yes, anything goes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=5)