# Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150 "2005-07-05T16:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![inkleberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@inkleberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inkleberry)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/141 "2005-07-06T00:03:19Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > In both of the posts I cited there was no reference to living in a trailer. **Inkleberry** ’s specifically was **not** about trailer park residents. Nope. Mine was about a trashy group living in their _car repair shop_. Trailer would be an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/142 "2005-07-06T00:05:00Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I knew a South African person as well. I used to think I could tell them apart from English people, because it seems to me that S.Africans, black or white enunciate more then the English. Offtopic, does that seem to be the case to you? A South African accent is noticeably different than an English accent. It’s closer to Australian than to English, but still distinct from the former, too. ---
**Author:** ![Farmwoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8dc957/32.png) [@Farmwoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmwoman)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/143 "2005-07-06T00:25:08Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > It’s like this: Like it or not, there is a huge advantage to being white in this country. I don’t make the facts, I just report them. Given that, when you look at Economically Disadvantaged Cultural Capital Challenged People of Trailer of Western European Decent® in the context of the Rugged Individual Value System© that is so common in this country, it is not difficult to see why this group is singled out for contempt. They started life on third base, and still managed to fuck it up. This is precisely why I’ve always considered the term white trash to be overtly racist, and not necessarily against Whites…and no one had to point it out to me – it’s always seemed pretty obvious. Perhaps it’s because I’ve often heard the phrase with an emphasis on _white_, as if, while we are overlooking the dumpster of mud-colored human trash, our eyes are drawn to the speck of _white_. And we find its presence there so remarkable. Remarkable enough that we feel compelled to point out the color of this particular piece of trash. It’s condescention delivered in scatter-shot. That being said, I’m not a fan of speech banning, and prefer to let the assholes show themselves. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/144 "2005-07-06T00:46:29Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > But white trash comes in only one color. 🙂 > > And, if it’s a classist thing, why not “prole trash” or “dirty poor people” or “welfare trash” or “trailer trash”? Because we’re talking language usage and folks do not tend to consult with dictionaries, etymologists, usage panels, handbooks of style, or even me when they begin using a word or phrase outside its original provenance. The phrase had a meaning. The speakers of that phrase moved away from the place where the meaning had a particular association. Used outside its original context by a later generation of speakers, one aspect of its connotation (“poor and lower class”) stayed with it while its associated connotation (“roughly as bad as that despised race”) was lost to speakers for whom the clear cultural distinctions were not ever-present in their society. And, to some extent, society itself changed so that even in its original location the original connotation of race made less sense. So the phrase continues in use with only part of its original meaning. (For that matter, the very fact that you can find dictionaries that indicate that the term is used to describe “poor working-class white people” demonstrates that even its original particular distinction is weakening (or, at least, changing) since the original meaning held a distinct undertone of “not working.”) * * * (Of course, if your point was simply that **eleanorigby** , herself, should find a different expression, then I will step aside and let you two worry it out.) ---
**Author:** ![poison\_heart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b3f665/32.png) [@poison\_heart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poison_heart)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/145 "2005-07-06T01:15:35Z")
Don’t you get it? It’s like “woman doctor” or “black honor student.” The underlying assumption of the phrase “white trash” is that it is normal for other races to be trash, so that when a white person joins them in being trash it must be made clear. It is also an ugly classist insult, which privileged white people who are unable to see their own privilege use against white people who did not have those privileges. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/146 "2005-07-06T01:21:12Z")
> [@Hung Mung](#): > > I agree with you. I don’t like saying black because it feels a little weird (and gets funny looks from my friends sometimes, like I just said ‘shit’ in church), but I do it anyway for the reasons you mention. It’s sometimes the simplest way to distinguish a person. I’m not trying to get in the middle of this argument, but I am curious if you’d feel weird and get looks like you said “shit” in church if you said, “that white guy over there” instead of “that black guy over there”? Why does the word “black” bother you but not the word “white”? Both of them are inaccurately descriptive shorthand to indicate race. If you say white, then why not say black? Or, if you say African-American, why not say European American too? This language game and continuous juggling and shifting of PC terminology tires me out. I’m in education, and people get into very heated debates about what’s OK to say and what’s not. Recently, I heard it’s not OK to use the term “Native American” anymore. Now it’s “indigenous people.” And that you shouldn’t call people “slaves.” It’s “enslaved people.” Who decides these things? Are people really offended by the prior term? Honestly, I find the whole thing quite perplexing. I want to say the right thing but I don’t want to be a PC tool. 😕 I also am not sure why everyone considers **Contrapuntal** such a douchebag. He’s asking a question that I consider pretty legitimate, and the amount of contention that’s come out shows that it’s a pretty valid point of confusion. The struggle over what’s OK to say and what’s not is a thorny one, and very complicated. He (or she?) is questioning the rule to see where the boundaries are. That’s cool by me. I imagine the policy won’t change, but the discussion is pretty interesting anyway, mostly. ---
**Author:** ![poison\_heart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b3f665/32.png) [@poison\_heart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poison_heart)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/147 "2005-07-06T01:23:01Z")
> [@](#): > > So while white trash refers to whites who waste their whiteness What kind of crap is that. “Waste their whiteness”? This is the same kind of garbage that prompts people to call success “acting white.” Race and class are not the same thing. Whites without privilege are rendered invisible by a race-obsessed dialogue, just as non-white women are often rendered invisible by a gender-obsessed dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/148 "2005-07-06T01:41:10Z")
> [@fruitbat](#): > > Nope, the boards could ban everything and leave us with “the, him and platypus” and we woud have to make due. The first amendment only applies to restrictions government places on speech. Private entities can restrict speech however they like. > . The Him! platypus, platypus, platypus, the 🆒, him the the paltypus. platypus him the :dubious: platypus, the platypus, the him him the him the the him platypus, platypus! platypus, the platypus, the him him the him the the him platypus, platypus hm the the platypus platypus, the platypus, the him him the him the the him platypus, platypus :smack: !! platypus, the platypus, the him him the him the the him platypus, ;j platypus! Him platypus the platypus platypus him the platypus :wally ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/149 "2005-07-06T02:06:21Z")
> [@poison heart](#): > > The underlying assumption of the phrase “white trash” is that it is normal for other races to be trash, so that when a white person joins them in being trash it must be made clear. It may have implied that at some point in the 170 years that the phrase has been in use but meanings change over time. Did slaves consider themselves “trash”? > [@](#): > > _It is also an ugly classist insult, which privileged white people who are unable to see their own privilege use against white people who did not have those privileges._ If that were the case, you wouldn’t have so many people calling Paris Hilton or Britney Spears “white trash”. Some say the term even applies to Bill Clinton. > [@](#): > > _What kind of crap is that. “Waste their whiteness”?_ > [@](#): > > [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_trash) > According to Oxford English Dictionary, “white trash” first came into common use in the 1830s as an American pejorative used by the slaves of “gentlemen” (rich white Southerners, often plantation aristocrats) against poor Caucasians who worked in the field. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/150 "2005-07-06T02:18:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So the phrase continues in use with only part of its original meaning. In this case my own experience backs up the dictionaries, wikipedia, their usage panels, etc. I’ve never heard anyone use “white trash” in a sense that ment anything other then “poor and lower class white person,” nor have I ever used the term to mean anything else. I’ve never heard the term used to describe poor and lower class non-whites (there’s a plethora of other epithets for them) and I haven’t heard the term used to describe rich white people who act like whores until people have suggested that Paris Hilton was “white trash” (a classification I vehemently disagree with). > [@tomndebb](#): > > (For that matter, the very fact that you can find dictionaries that indicate that the term is used to describe “poor working-class white people” demonstrates that even its original particular distinction is weakening (or, at least, changing) since the original meaning held a distinct undertone of “not working.”) Not according to the OED, per the Wikipedia article I cited. According to the OED according to Wikipedia[sup]1[/sup], the term originally applied to poor white people who worked in the fields of former slave-owners. I think agricultural field workers work, and work hard. Perhaps there are regional differences or something (note that I ain’t the only one in this thread who thinks it has racial connotations), but, again, I’ve never heard the phrase used to describe anything other then poor, lower-class white people, and I’ve heard the phrase plenty. Perhaps the word is used differently on the SDMB then it is in the places I’ve lived/subcultures I’ve participated in. [Let us have our own usage panel. 🙂](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6334426) [sup]1[/sup]I really need to buy an online subscription to the OED. But in this case I don’t think Wikipedia is incorrect when they cite it. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/151 "2005-07-06T02:37:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > That’s exactly the argument that I said I don’t buy. (snip) A man who is condescending is merely a visitor to that plane. I dunno, **Lib-LHOD’s** line works for me-the difference 'tween hate speech & condescending speech. Doesn’t mean we condone comdescention, it means the other is _different_ ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/152 "2005-07-06T02:37:59Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I’ve never heard the term used to describe poor and lower class non-whites (there’s a plethora of other epithets for them) and I haven’t heard the term used to describe rich white people who act like whores until people have suggested that Paris Hilton was “white trash” (a classification I vehemently disagree with). It’s not so much rich white people acting like whores but rather rich white people acting like the ultimate in spoiled brats or those who are “famous for being famous”. 16 years ago, Zsa Zsa Gabor would likely have been considered “white trash” for the infamous slapping incident. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/153 "2005-07-06T02:40:39Z")
co **n** denscention. :smack: :smack: fu\*\*ing keyboard ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/154 "2005-07-06T02:55:52Z")
> [@wring](#): > > co **n** denscention. :smack: :smack: > fu\*\*ing keyboard fuck I’m goin’ to bed. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/155 "2005-07-06T03:00:21Z")
> [@wring](#): > > co **n** denscention. :smack: :smack: > fu\*\*ing keyboard Um…condescension? And I agree about ZsaZsa–the epitome of white trash attitude. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/156 "2005-07-06T03:12:29Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > In this case my own experience backs up the dictionaries, wikipedia, their usage panels, etc. I’ve never heard anyone use “white trash” in a sense that ment anything other then “poor and lower class white person,” nor have I ever used the term to mean anything else. I’ve never heard the term used to describe poor and lower class non-whites (there’s a plethora of other epithets for them) and I haven’t heard the term used to describe rich white people who act like whores until people have suggested that Paris Hilton was “white trash” (a classification I vehemently disagree with). And? I have not denied the etymology of the word. I have actually pointed out the racist _origins_ f the phrase on this board to people who were unaware of that usage. I do not dispute that it is used only of whites. The point, however, is that across the breadth of the U.S., today, a large number of people (I would guess a majority, but I cannot quantify it) no longer think of setting up an equation that establishes a hierarchy where “white trash” are measured against blacks. The very fact that I have had to explain how it had a racist origin indicates that it has passed beyond that. Just as many (most?) people use the word “gyp” without any cognizance that they are slurring the Rom, the phrase has passed beyond its etymological roots. (In the same way, many people now continue to say “steam shovel” because that _phrase_ is burned into their consciousness, even though there are no longer steam shovels in use along our highways and it probably entered their consciousness through the 1938 children’s story that marked the _demise_ of that type of machinery.) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/157 "2005-07-06T03:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I also am not sure why everyone considers Contrapuntal such a douchebag. Oh, he’s not so much of one, really; I just was itchin’ to use that line. ---
**Author:** ![ioioio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ioioio/32/316_2.png) [@ioioio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ioioio)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/158 "2005-07-06T04:04:18Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > . . . If white trash is not hate speech, then neither is stupid darky. If we are to have a rule about hate speech, then white trash qualifies. . . How can “white trash” be hate speech if virtually no one is insulted by being called that? The few people here who have agreed that it’s hate speech probably would not themselves be insulted to be called white trash. The only people I can think of who would be hurt by being called that are very low status white people who feel powerless about their status, and the person calling them trash would have to have the intention of insulting them. To support your opinion that banning hate speech here is inconsistent, a better example would be the word “honkey”, which covers all white people. Still, few white people would be very upset about being called a “honkey” because we do not live in a culture where being white is shameful. However, if a non-white person said, “We need to kill the honkeys”, that would be hate speech. It would be hate speech if they simply said, “We need to kill the white people”. ## If you really want to insult a certain type of person here in the South, call them a “white nigger”. See the power of the word? If you called them “white trash’”, they’d probably agree with you, and y’all could have a good laugh. As for the suggestion that the “no hate speech” rule should be abandoned, I agree in theory. However, in reality, I don’t want to be part of a message board where I’m going to encounter genuinely hurtful racial epithets. The rule works pretty well as it is now. And discussing it from time to time is enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/159 "2005-07-06T06:00:17Z")
> [@laina\_f](#): > > How can “white trash” be hate speech if virtually no one is insulted by being called that? The few people here who have agreed that it’s hate speech probably would not themselves be insulted to be called white trash. . **I** would be. I mean, if you meant it at all seriously. ---
**Author:** ![inkleberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@inkleberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inkleberry)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150/160 "2005-07-06T06:10:28Z")
> [@laina\_f](#): > > To support your opinion that banning hate speech here is inconsistent, a better example would be the word “honkey”, which covers all white people. Still, few white people would be very upset about being called a “honkey” because we do not live in a culture where being white is shameful. However, if a non-white person said, “We need to kill the honkeys”, that would be hate speech. It would be hate speech if they simply said, “We need to kill the white people”. > . Or, if they are like me, it’s because one cannot possibly take the word “honkey” seriously. The Sesame Street monsters known as “honkers” utterly killed the term “honkey” as a slur. That and the obvious- using the term “honkey” makes you sound like a total tool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/point-of-order-hate-speech-in-the-pit/311150.md?page=9)