Airblairxxx, you’re new here, so I understand that you’re still learning the boundaries, but this is definitely Great Debates material. I’ll move it there.
k2dave sez:
Heh. I’ve said it before; I’ll say it again: If you’re so far to the right that you think Faux News provides balanced coverage, then yes, as far as you’re concerned there most certainly is a liberal media.
To the rest of us, however, it’s a demonstrably biased myth. It’s simply not true, either in publishing or on television. More specifically, the claim that the media have supported Al Gore in this campaign is false. On the contrary, news outlets have, in general, treated Bush much more gently than his erstwhile opponent. Some might even say the coverage has been unfair.
You’re free to make your own judgments, though, of course.
Oh, and Airblair: nice OP. Succintly stated.
I understand that, but in this case, the number of recovered ballots was disproportionate to the voting conventions of the counties in contention. It wasn’t WAY off - 80-20 as opposed to, say, 70-30 - but in a tight race like this, as you mentioned, it makes all the difference.
k2dave wrote:
I’ve hear this claim many times from Bush supporters: let’s look at some facts. The polls in the panhandle closed at 8:00 PM EST. The media first called the state for Gore at 7:49 PM EST, 11 minutes before the polls closed.
At that point, the only people who had not yet voted, who could yet vote were those people already in the voting rooms or on their way in. So the people who saw the announcements on television before the close of voting had either already voted, or had never intended to vote. I doubt that more than 10 people actually failed to vote because of the state being called. And remember that 40% of the panhandle votes were for Gore, leaving a net gain of 1 Bush vote per 5 cast.
So Bush may have lost 0 to 2 votes due to the state being called.
Bill
Thanks, but apparently not enough to get this booted to Great Debates. I guess there’s nothing more to be done, but I was hoping to solicit a factual basis from Bush supporters for their guy’s presidency. Sigh.
Up to now everyone has simply assumed that the outstanding absentee ballots would go Bush.
There is increasing talk this may not be so.
Here’s the question:
It’s Saturday, all the shit is still spinning inthe fan on both sides.
The secretary of state announces that the current vote total of certified votes, plus the absentees,make Gore the winner.
What do you expect Bush to do? What do you WANT Bush to do?
Defend your answer.
stoid
Stoidela has a good point here that I was going to bring up. The absentee ballots had to have been postmarked by last Tuesday. Most were sent in days or weeks before Tuesday. I contend that logically speaking, the majority of the absentee ballots have gotten to Florida and have been counted at this point. The media’s not saying that.
Bush can’t rely on the absentee ballots.
The real relevance of the absentee ballots is that it allows Friday as a date to extend thigs to that the Republicans cannot dismiss. (Then again, things CAN be slowed down to prevent Democrats from gaining any ground through Friday. Dirty fighting if you ask me.)
Thanks for requoting that. You made me realize that I spelled “succinctly” wrong. And don’t worry about the move to Great Debates–you were soliciting opinions on facts, not facts themselves. We’ll take care of this thread just fine over here in GD–why, it won’t be long before we’ll have shifted the discussion to gay libertarian creationists, and whether their Second Amendment rights allow them to keep a smoking gun in California bars! evil grin
One more thing about this statement by k2dave:
Groundskeeper Willie makes a cogent point. In addition, Florida being called prematurely could conceivably have damaged Gore’s chances in Oregon. Even though this election was conducted on a wholly vote-by-mail basis over here, the Democratic Party pushed for many Nader voters to wait until the last minute to turn their ballots in. The reasoning was that if it looked like the election would be tight, those voters could change their vote to Gore–conversely, if it stood to be a blowout, they could vote for Nader without any feelings of guilt. With Florida seemingly in the bag for Gore, some of these voters might have dropped off their ballots for Nader, costing Gore a potentially substantial number of votes.
Everything cuts both ways.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by pezwookiee *
**
Well, CNN addressed it just today. There are about 1800 uncounted ballots, about 450 of which came from the military. The democratic get-out-the-vote guy seems to feel that since the majority are civilian, there’s a good chance they will go to Gore.
I hope so…just because it will be WONDERFUL to watch George CHOKE.
Anyone else amused by George being incommunicado since Saturday? After his nasty little performance, I’m sure his handlers decided muzzling him was the smart move.
I still wanna hear from Bushies about how they think he will and should handle this situation. Someone better answer soon or I’ll have to take draastic measures…I’ll have to START A NEW THREAD!!!
Aaaaaaiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
stoid
As posted by Stoidela…
How George handles a loss really doesn’t matter. I’m more concerned that some of the militia groups may decide that Al Gore has seized power illegally and, as patriots, are required to take up arms against him. I’m afraid that the result will make Waco look like a tea party. As for me, I bought a couple boxes of ammo last week, just in case.
those folks just stood down.
Al Gore just seized the day. I for one am thrilled. Absolutely beautiful move on his part.
George’s true colors will be shown now. Let’s see if he is capable of rising to the occasion. I will be amazed if he does.
stoid
Stoid: It sounds like you’re referring to some recent event. For the benefit of those of us who aren’t mainlining on the wire services, do you mind saying what the “absolutely beautiful move” is? 
Has anyone heard about the duplicate absentee ballots? I’m sorry I don’t have a source for this – I’ve read so much about all of this that I don’t remember where I first saw this – but there are folks overseas who are saying they were mailed two ballots. Supposedly the first one was supposed to be the sample, but it was not marked as such. Some people marked and mailed both of them. Incidentally, this story suggested that a lot of the military families cancel themselves out, because Dad votes Republican while Mom votes Democrat. And a lot of those minority kids on the aircraft carriers aren’t necessarily going to vote Republican, either.
I thought the absentees were counted as they arrive. And they had to be postmarked no later than Election Day, so how many are still floating around out there?
Anyway. Bush needs to know – no, Bush needs US to know that he won fair and square. The counties Democrats want recounted all reported hey-wait-a-minute irregularities inconsistent with ordinary human error, IMHO. It’s easy to be impatient with people who apparently have no attention to detail – been there, done that – but if thousands of people in one county made the same mistake, something is wrong there and I think Gore’s people have a right to be concerned. Bush oughta be sending out a relaxed, “sure, let’s take all the time needed” message, not a testy, “you had your chance, let’s get this done” message.
I don’t think there is going to be a re-vote in Palm Beach or in the panhandle. I think Gore’s only chance is to get recounts for the counties with irregularities. And I would be happy never to hear the term “hanging chad” ever again. Meanwhile, James Baker comes out and does his snake-charmer act, telling us over and over how irresponsible Gore’s people are for wanting to prolong this, what a huge waste of time it is, how unfair it is, over and over and over…
Gore just spoke, seizing the high ground and backing George right into a corner, without conceding squat. Turn on your TV or radio, you’ll hear it repeated soon enough.
in the process of making a PR move to look like a leader, he actually does. And he leaves Bush in the dust. Be interesting to see his response, which is quickly coming. basically, he left Bush with no place ot go that doesn’t make him look like an asshole. He drew the line in the sand.
Ya just gotta hear it.
stoid
Check your map, the pan handle (part of it) is in central time zone leaving 1 hr 11 minutes before the polls close
If the hand count in demo. counties were dismissed and he lost after the overseas ballots were counted then he lost - fairly and honestly and we will suffer under the man who thinks the internal combuston engine is the single greatest threat to mankind. But if he lost BECAUSE of questionable hand counts… I don’t know.
I would like to see the entire hand recount effort somehow ruled unlawful as it is certainaly unfair. But as we all know there are things that should be illeagal but are not.
sigh
Let me explain this in a matter simple enough for even you to understand. The polls closed in Florida at 7:00 PM local time. In the Florida panhandle, that was 8:00 PM EST. Did you think that the networks called Florida before any of the polls closed? There was in fact a total of 11 minutes after the state was called for Panhandle residents to vote.
Bill
refrain continues to amaze me.
Why are they unfair? If you think they are unfair because you think people will cheat,ok. I think you are being paranoid, but it’s an understandable concern. (After all, not all the counters are going to be Gore sympathizers, and everybody is going to have someone staring over thier shoulder. They’d have to be almost as bold as the Secretary of State to try and cheat. )
But outside of that single concern, all other arguments I’ve heard so far seem really self-serving and convenient.
The whole "how do you tell if ti’s a vote? " controversy is ludicrous. Is there a corner punched out? It’s a vote. Are there no corners punched out? It’s not a vote. Period. (I disagree with the judge who okayed “pregnant chads” - I think that’s a bit ridiculous) it’s a completely objective standard, very easy to follow, and not easy to cheat. (If the standard were two corners, not three, that would be easier to cheat…just pull that third coner. But starting a hole that doesn’t exist is just a little too difficult and obvious).
So if that isn’t why it is unfair, then it’s unfair because everyone knows the extra votes that are found will favor Gore. Well, gee, if “everyone knows” that, then doesn’t it follow that the truth is that Gore won, and attempts to prevent all the votes from being counted are attempts to stop a fair counting and the chosen candidate from being acknowledged? I heard it said on MSNBC today that even a count of the whole state would still favor Gore, because of the fact that the heavily democratic counties are the ones with the funky ballots and the most errors and are the most likely to turn up additional votes…which takes me back to the fact that that means Gore really is the winner!
So really, someone help me to understand, cuz I just don’t.
stoid
No…the polls in Florida closed at 7pm, not 8. The times for polling vary from state to state. Here in NY they were open til 9.
It is impossible for them to call Florida 1 h and 11 min before the polls close in the Panhandle because that would be before they close in the rest of the state…And, except for the confusion of the two time zones that screwed things up in Florida, the news services’ policy is not to call a state til the polls are closed. That’s why you get lots of announcements right on the hour! (And that is why, right at 7pm, they started talking about Florida, but what they said at that point was that Florida was too close to call.)
ElvisL1ves:
I see. And a Democrat, by definition, is completely impartial. Uh-huh.
All the news agencies were totally out of line in trying to “call the ball” in any public election. Another good case for “there ought to be a limit to freedom”.
Floridans got their automatic recount due to the closeness of the election. They even got a by-hand recount of select counties. They asked for, and a second hand recount, was begun.
The “questionable” butterfly ballets were designed and approved by the election boards of the relevant counties, election boards made up of both major parties, and in some cases third parties.
So why are the Democrats bitching about ballots that were approved by their local party officials?
But now that, by the Laws of the State of Florida, duly interpreted by a Judge of Law and duly exercised within the letter of said law by the duly elected Secretary of State, their third recount is going to be ignored and their official tally is being entered into the records, whisperings of “partisanship” and “impropriety” are being circulated.
If there are improrieties, investigate. Someone come forward and make a claim. Let it be investigated. If it’s based on any kind of factual evidence, prosecute.
But how can you claim partisanship on the part of SoS Harris for following the letter of the law?
Sour grape accusations are a poor basis for dragging this out, and do more harm than good. If it keeps up, there will be riots and shooting in the streets.
And claiming that VP Gore has won the popular and electoral vote when the friggin’ election isn’t even over yet is…is…asinine!
The election isn’t over until the Electoral College says so.
If VP Gore is declared winner, W. will gracefully congratulate him on a race well run, and go home to Austin.
I believe that if W. wins, ex-VP Gore, or his followers on his behalf, will parse verbage, imply, insinuate and outright accuse the GOP of rigging the election, and eventually incite people to riot and acts of civil disobediance.
ExTank
“Mostly Harmless :p”