# Pointless story; was I being a jerk? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668 "2010-01-12T16:06:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![friggae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/45deac/32.png) [@friggae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friggae)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/21 "2010-01-12T17:36:03Z")
We should all agree that steronz was not a jerk and just go to lunch. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/22 "2010-01-12T17:45:16Z")
> [@overlyverbose](#): > > pretty obvious that you didn’t care about the lesson and just wanted to leave and rallied others to openly support you, which is obnoxious. It’s obnoxious that he suggested something that everyone thought was a good idea? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/23 "2010-01-12T17:52:16Z")
> [@ReticulatingSplines](#): > > I find it ironic that the instructor teaching leadership got absolutely manhandled by her class. You should all get your money back for that course. Good point. It sounds like the instructor didn’t keep control of her class very well. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/24 "2010-01-12T17:52:31Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > It’s obnoxious that he suggested something that everyone thought was a good idea? We don’t know that. There may have been some people who wanted to continue the lesson and discuss it with the presenter. But who wants to be known as the guy who made us stay in the stupid exercise instead of going to lunch. I think what he did was jerkish and not within the spirit of the lesson. If you dislike programs like this, find a job that doesn’t have them. Don’t bitch to me if the company is trying to help you acquire and finesse new skills. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/25 "2010-01-12T17:54:30Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I have done two interesting ones - a plane crash in the desert and a bush fire in Australia. In each you have to choose a course of action, and rank the items to keep. Each person does the ranking individually, then the group makes a joint list. Finally, you find out the real answers. Oh, one of these things? “Select survival equipment to take from the following list?” I’ve done some of those in school, and what stood out to me was the astounding dumbassery of some of my teammates. My teammates usually insisted on using a handgun’s _sound_ to signal the pilot of a jet helicopter flying a thousand feet overhead _instead of a flare gun_, or carrying _forty pounds_ of water apiece while wading through deep snow in the stream-filled North Woods, and so on. It’s been decades since I did those survival-themed exercises, though, so I have to assume most of those former teammates are now dead. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/26 "2010-01-12T17:59:33Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > This. > > These exercises are attempts to simulate the real world a bit, and give people (not just you) practice in handling certain situations. In this case, achieving consensus. I have taken negotiations training where artificial limits are set on what part we could negotiate. The goal was to force learning of a particular type of negotiation style. > > Now, there ARE some useless instructors, and some poorly thought out scenarios. However - you did not (appear) to give it a chance. I have done two interesting ones - a plane crash in the desert and a bush fire in Australia. In each you have to choose a course of action, and rank the items to keep. Each person does the ranking individually, then the group makes a joint list. Finally, you find out the real answers. It is interesting to see the people who knew what to do (highly correlated with the correct answer) who are members of groups that did poorly. That triggers yet another leadership discussion. > > You can go into these treating them like a joke, and screw over the other participants. Or you can treat them as a learning exercise, and try to maximize your value. You were not a jerk as much as you were immature. Then again, many of us have been that way about learning in life, where we skipped classes, did the minimum effort, etc. The difference here is that you screwed others and not just yourself. I don’t agree. He did reach consensus and in a very valuable way: by getting the group to care more about a positive future reward than their differences of opinion. This is pretty much the definition of leadership. Furthermore he did not allow his group to become ego-involved in the concept of a “right solution.” Instead he motivated them to set aside their egos for mutual benefit. This also shows leadership. I don’t think the participants in the group lost out on anything. Remember it was not a course in _negotiation_ it was a course in _leadership_. They saw effective leadership and creative problem solving in action. I haven’t heard too many people complaining Alexander the Great lacked leadership skills, when he cut the Gordion Knot in half with his sword. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/27 "2010-01-12T18:02:20Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > We don’t know that. There may have been some people who wanted to continue the lesson and discuss it with the presenter. But who wants to be known as the guy who made us stay in the stupid exercise instead of going to lunch. They reached a consensus. Usually that means a little arm twisting. Don’t you think that if they had done it the instructor’s way, a couple of folks would have gone along just to get along? That’s how it works in the real world. ETA: Or, what **Hello Again** said. It’s not the OP’s fault that the exercise was flawed. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/28 "2010-01-12T18:05:12Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > We don’t know that. There may have been some people who wanted to continue the lesson and discuss it with the presenter. But who wants to be known as the guy who made us stay in the stupid exercise instead of going to lunch. Well hell, even if they’d actually gone through the whole song-and-dance, there’s a possibility someone would have been lurking in the background thinking, “I really think Guy#7 was the most responsible, but I don’t want to hold things up.” They reached a consensus, and they reached it quickly. Bravo to the OP. Team-Building Synergy bullshit can suck it. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/29 "2010-01-12T18:11:33Z")
This sounds like a viable solution to me. Nobody in the group objected to this so they all felt the same way. Something got done swiftly as opposed to hours wasted in discussion on a problem that has no needed solution in any other way than an output had to be generated. This is how all organizations should function. ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/30 "2010-01-12T18:12:10Z")
If it was a course that people had chosen to go on and paid good money (or had their company pay good money) for it, then yes, you were a jerk. If you were made to go on the course, as was every other poor soul there, then no, you weren’t a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/31 "2010-01-12T18:45:46Z")
But there is a lesson here for the real world. For example: “Yes, I know the ISO9000 procedures are bullshit, but without them the company tanks, so the faster we do them, the faster we can get back to whatever we were doing.” > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The instructor should have made it a condition that you all reach a unanimous consensus on where to eat lunch. This is a brilliant idea. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/32 "2010-01-12T19:25:17Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > It’s obnoxious that he suggested something that everyone thought was a good idea? The OP asked, “Was I a jerk or not?” not “Did I reach a consensus within my group?”. I do think the OP demonstrated leadership skills by assessing the situation and taking action, which is what leaders are supposed to do. But they don’t always satisfy everyone and sometimes you wind up snubbing someone, in this case the instructor. Politely saying, “Here - here’s your stinking exercise. Can we get out of this boring class for a while?” isn’t the nicest thing to do. That said, I’d be happy to be in the same group as the OP. I wouldn’t be too pleased if I were the instructor, though. They’re probably thinking, “God - another smart ass. Can’t you just go along with the damn class so everyone else doesn’t do the same thing?” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/33 "2010-01-12T19:42:01Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I have done two interesting ones - a plane crash in the desert and a bush fire in Australia. In each you have to choose a course of action, and rank the items to keep. Each person does the ranking individually, then the group makes a joint list. Finally, you find out the real answers. It is interesting to see the people who knew what to do (highly correlated with the correct answer) who are members of groups that did poorly. That triggers yet another leadership discussion. We did the plane crash one recently. Basically, from the scoring we learned that my group was collectively dumber than any of us were individually. I find it interesting that whether or not people think \*\*steronz \*\*was being a jerk depends on how valuable they think these sort of corporate training activities are. I think it’s pretty arrogant to assume that there is nothing you can learn from one of these exercises. Generally the point of these exercises is to demonstrate how different people will interact differently in group situations, depending on their personality type (these exercises are often accompanied by a Meyers-Briggs type personality framework). For example, you may have one jerk who thinks he knows everything and attempts to dominate the discussion while more introverted members opt not to participate. Silence is not consent. Just because someone does not object does not mean they are in agreement. And in an organizational setting, this can lead to long-term problems if a large number of your employees feel marginalized and stew in silence. So from a leadership perspective, the OP did not demonstrate anything other than the failure of the instructor or the class. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/34 "2010-01-12T19:50:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > We did the plane crash one recently. Basically, from the scoring we learned that my group was collectively dumber than any of us were individually.\ Thinking about it, I’d say that has been my experience with group exercises, too. I guess that’s why we have the idea of something that doesn’t work particularly well being “designed by committee.” ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/35 "2010-01-12T19:59:29Z")
I think the OP showed leadership I think the exercise leader showed a **lack** of leadership I think the OP also reached a **good** solution – _paretto_ (“80/20”) suggests that whatever the suggestion the single individual made, in a very small percentage of the time allotted for the exercise, was probably quite close to what the final result would have been Bottom line – they may not have learned the lesson the instructor intended form them to learn, but they **did** learn a lesson in leadership, as well as in accepting the “good” and rejecting the striving for the “perfect.” ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/36 "2010-01-12T20:00:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Silence is not consent. Just because someone does not object does not mean they are in agreement. And in an organizational setting, this can lead to long-term problems if a large number of your employees feel marginalized and stew in silence. There’s always the potential of there being some wiener in the group who’s going to be bullied around. Had they taken the time to discuss and rank blame, that same wiener was just as likely to not agree with the consensus, but remain silent anyway because he’s a wiener. There’s really nothing you can do about that in group situations. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/37 "2010-01-12T20:02:46Z")
It’s really simple. You did something that benefited you at the cost of hurting the instructor. Hurting people for your own benefit, no matter how slight, is being a jerk. That said, I don’t know if your particular jerkishness was uncalled for. That’s the part that depends on the class. It seems that a healthy majority (if not everyone) thought the class was useless. A good teacher would not have let the class think that if she didn’t want it to work out like this. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/38 "2010-01-12T20:14:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Hurting people for your own benefit, no matter how slight, is being a jerk. What about getting a job at the expense of all the other applicants? What about intercepting a pass and returning it for a touchdown? What about being the winning bidder on a house that someone else really wants? There are all sorts of ways to act without being a jerk that both benefit yourself and necessarily hurt someone else. > [@](#): > > That said, I don’t know if your particular jerkishness was uncalled for. That’s the part that depends on the class. It seems that a healthy majority (if not everyone) thought the class was useless. A good teacher would not have let the class think that if she didn’t want it to work out like this. Exactly. I could argue that by exposing the flaws in the exercise he did both the instructor and the company a favor. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/39 "2010-01-12T20:22:20Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Exactly. I could argue that by exposing the flaws in the exercise he did both the instructor and the company a favor. Couldn’t you expose a “flaw” in just about every training exercise by pointing out that you believe it to be unrealistic and/or a waste of your time? The OP was just being a smartass. Not a big deal. But personally I wouldn’t feel too smug about my having observed that a particular training exercise was pointless or manipulative. Some one who has the authority to order him and his fellow trainees to waste their time in this training, thought it worthwhile. My interest in keeping my paychecks coming far outweigh my interest in revealing the “truth” about about how my bosses instruct me to spend my time. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668/40 "2010-01-12T20:26:40Z")
If you’ve ever taken any kind of management or leadship class in the government then you have done this exercise. I’ve done it 3 or 4 times in various forms and I can’t wait for the day someone steps up and does what **steronz** did. Maybe then the teacher will explain what mindlessly following a group to avoid causing trouble has to do with leadership. I really can’t help feeling that these sorts for exercises are designed to reveal the lack of leadership in us all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pointless-story-was-i-being-a-jerk/524668.md?page=3)