# Poisoning Pigeons in the Park **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454 "2013-03-20T15:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/1 "2013-03-20T15:30:01Z")
Somebody told me last night that in the late 1950s, a Madison Avenue ad executive singlehandedly spawned a campaign to eradicate the common pigeon from existence because they offended him by crapping on his office window sill and making a generalized ruckus. He said that this person coined the term ‘flying rat,’ and that he was quite successful at the time at turning the tide of public sentiment against feral pigeons. I assume that Lehrer’s _Poisoning Pigeons in the Park_ must have been mocking this campaign, and that the ‘park’ referenced in the song in Central Park. Who was this deranged Mad Man, and how successful was he in realizing his Malthusian Final Solution? Were cyanide-coated peanuts actually used as a means of exterminating pigeons? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/2 "2013-03-20T16:12:37Z")
How successful? Not very, considering there are still a few pigeons left in Central Park. Given the size of the population I doubt anybody could eradicate every last pigeon in Central Park, and even if they did there are plenty of pigeons in neighboring areas that would immediately take the place of the dearly departed. Completely eliminating a species is a lot harder than you think. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/3 "2013-03-20T16:14:27Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Were cyanide-coated peanuts actually used as a means of exterminating pigeons? Well, it certainly took care of the elephants. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/4 "2013-03-20T16:19:39Z")
Lehrer’s “Poisoning Pigeons” was a parody of springtime songs. I’ve never seen anything that indicated that it referred to a real campaign; indeed, in the recording session for the orchestral version, the piano player was so surprised he fell off his bench when he heard the name of the song. “Rats with wings” was nearly as common a phrase in the 1920s as it was in the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/5 "2013-03-20T16:27:24Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > “Rats with wings” was nearly as common a phrase in the 1920s as it was in the 1960s. Any cite for that? I’ve always heard it attributed to San Francisco columnist Herb Caen. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/6 "2013-03-20T18:57:05Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Well, it certainly took care of the elephants. But there aren’t any elephants in Central Park. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/7 "2013-03-20T19:01:52Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But there aren’t any elephants in Central Park. See! The flying rat is a term for a Bat. It’s been one for a long time. die Fledermaus ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/8 "2013-03-20T19:09:42Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Lehrer’s “Poisoning Pigeons” was a parody of springtime songs. I’ve never seen anything that indicated that it referred to a real campaign; indeed, in the recording session for the orchestral version, the piano player was so surprised he fell off his bench when he heard the name of the song. Lehrer himself wasn’t the piano player? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/9 "2013-03-20T19:53:50Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Any cite for that? I’ve always heard it attributed to San Francisco columnist Herb Caen. I’d bet pretty fair money that “feathered rats” is a Caenism. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/10 "2013-03-21T01:01:19Z")
Paradise probably portends previously pissed park-goers. Pigeons suck. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/11 "2013-03-21T01:36:05Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But there aren’t any elephants in Central Park. [There were.](http://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/when-elephants-lived-in-central-park/) ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/12 "2013-03-21T01:41:36Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > “Rats with wings” was nearly as common a phrase in the 1920s as it was in the 1960s. That didn’t sound right to me either, so I went looking for cites and found Colin Jerolmack’s article “How Pigeons Became Rats: The Cultural-Spatial Logic of Problem Animals,” [http://www.environment.as.nyu.edu/docs/IO/8744/socialproblems.pdf](http://www.environment.as.nyu.edu/docs/IO/8744/socialproblems.pdf). This paper certainly looks like the definitive (and perhaps the only) analysis of the perception of pigeons as problems in big cities (sparrows, too). Admittedly this seems like a niche topic… Anyway, Jerolmack (of CUNY) says that the first written use of the phrase is in 1966, in the New York Times: "Tagged on to the end of this paragraph is the first reported utterance of a metaphor that would follow the pigeon for the next 40 years: 'Commissioner Hoving calls the pigeon “a rat with wings.”’” His footnote says: "After searching a variety of news media, the internet, and other popular culture outlets, this is the oldest reference I have found for pigeons as ‘rats with wings.’” He also says: –that complaints about pigeons in NYC did not really begin until the 1930s; –that pigeons were often considered a nuisance in the 40s and 50s but that newspapers during that time “barely contained any moralizing language about pigeons as a species”; –that Lehrer’s song, dating from 1959, was “playing on the growing animosity toward pigeon feeding and a perception of these birds as a nuisance”; –and that in 1963 NYC officials began attributing some human deaths to pigeon-borne disease, so pigeons were not just a nuisance any more but a serious threat. And much more. But unless some other evidence shows up, I think we can safely assume that “rats with wings” was at the very least not common in the twenties. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/13 "2013-03-21T02:32:47Z")
Herb used “feathered rats”. not “rats with wings”, “flying rats”, or other variant. I miss the old boy - he taught 2 generations how to be San Franciscans (there was a time when that meant something); now the place is just another urban landscape with yuppies burning enough wood to actually pollute the air - given that it is surrounded by water on 3 sides, and therefore has nearly constant on-shore/off-shore winds, air pollution requires some effort - way to go assholes! ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/14 "2013-03-21T03:39:31Z")
“Feathered rats” is actually a lot more repulsive, at least to me. Can’t wait to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/15 "2013-03-21T04:05:11Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Lehrer himself wasn’t the piano player? He was on the live album, and in solo performances. I don’t know anything about this orchestral version. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/16 "2013-03-21T11:52:45Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Any cite for that? I’ve always heard it attributed to San Francisco columnist Herb Caen. [Google NGram viewer](http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=rats+with+wings&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=) ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/17 "2013-03-21T12:17:04Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > [Google NGram viewer](http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=rats+with+wings&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=) Maybe everyone else already knew about this Google feature, but I didn’t. Holy moly, that’s amazing! Thanks, **RealityChuck**. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/18 "2013-03-21T12:31:32Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Maybe everyone else already knew about this Google feature, but I didn’t. Holy moly, that’s amazing! Thanks, **RealityChuck**. I dunno, I typed in “bat shit crazy” and got no results. You would think this would have popped up over the last decade from Bill Maher references alone. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/19 "2013-03-21T13:09:46Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Maybe everyone else already knew about this Google feature, but I didn’t. Holy moly, that’s amazing! Thanks, **RealityChuck**. Well, you have to emphasize “Google” in that. It only finds what exists in a particular subset of Google Reality. No hits for “feathered rats,” yet I know Herb Caen used it frequently after about 1970 and I’ve seen the phrase in influenced writers’ work. it must not be in the digitized newspaper archives or ever used in _Wired_, therefore it does not exist in the Google dojo. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454/20 "2013-03-21T13:25:19Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > [Google NGram viewer](http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=rats+with+wings&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=) That’s cool! But is there any way to tell if the phrase referred to pigeons back in the day, or was the phrase just found in some pulpy horror stories referencing actual rats that can fly? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poisoning-pigeons-in-the-park/653454.md?page=2)