# Poker trivia r.e. TJ Cloutier **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530 "2007-12-19T01:12:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ender\_Will](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ender\_Will](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ender_Will)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/1 "2007-12-19T01:12:20Z")
Playing poker last night, one of the guys was railing against “this string of knuckleheads” winning the WSOP, which quickly led into everyone telling stories of their favorite pros. Somebody said that the dealer once accidentally mucked T.J. Cloutier’s cards but he continued to play, and win, the hand by bluffing out the other player. First off, is there any truth to this tale? Second, how could one win with no cards? And a purely hypothetical: What happens if everyone mucks? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/2 "2007-12-19T04:59:38Z")
[QUOTE=Ender\_Will] Playing poker last night, one of the guys was railing against “this string of knuckleheads” winning the WSOP, which quickly led into everyone telling stories of their favorite pros. Somebody said that the dealer once accidentally mucked T.J. Cloutier’s cards but he continued to play, and win, the hand by bluffing out the other player. First off, is there any truth to this tale? Second, how could one win with no cards? And a purely hypothetical: What happens if everyone mucks? [/QUOTE] First: Nope. No way. At least, not in a casino. If you muck, it’s over. I guess if it was in a private game, and no one realized until much, much later, you might be able to get away with it, if the other players were cloe enough friends to not kick your ass over it. Second: The last person to muck wins, since everyone else gave up their hand first. If it’s simultaneous, and you just can’t decide who was last? Depends on the casino. The house might keep the pot, or they might leave it in for the next hand. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/3 "2007-12-19T11:57:08Z")
\*It occurred in Shreveport, Louisiana, where Cloutier was playing “pot-limit” hold’em. In hold’em, everyone gets two cards facedown (the pocket), then three community cards belonging to all players are turned up in the middle (the flop), then a fourth communal card (the turn, or fourth street) is dealt, then a fifth (the river, or fifth street). The player with the best combination of five cards wins. In pot limit, the most you can bet is the size of the pot at that time. “I was playing Wayne Edmunds, who always looks down after he makes a bet, doesn’t see what’s going on,” Cloutier says. “On fourth street, I had the nuts”–the best possible hand; even with one card to go, he couldn’t lose–“so I bet $2,000. Well, the dealer accidentally grabs my cards and throws them in the muck [discard pile]. But Wayne, he didn’t see it happen. Everyone but Wayne saw it. So I don’t say anything, but I’m wondering what to do. Then I just held my hands out in front of me, like the cards are under there, like I’m hiding 'em.” Cloutier is 6-feet-4, probably 250 pounds. He played tight end in the pass-happy Canadian Football League for five years. He doesn’t have hands so much as he has sandbags with five sections of plumbing pipe attached. He could palm a Michelin radial. The last card was turned over. Cloutier didn’t hesitate. He reached out with one hand and bet his last $3,000. Edmunds, a good player, better than you, met his gaze. “He folded,” Cloutier says. “Threw his hand away.” Therein, the definition of a poker stud: a man who doesn’t need cards to win a game of cards. \* From [this article](http://www.dallasobserver.com/2001-07-19/news/the-player/). ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/4 "2007-12-19T12:14:04Z")
The story I heard was about Amarillo Slim, who got one (not both) of his hole cards mucked when the player next to him folded, but kept playing and won the hand with one hole card. ---
**Author:** ![Buckwheat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@Buckwheat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buckwheat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/5 "2007-12-19T21:06:13Z")
One of my very best friends is married to T.J. Cloutiers sister (seriously). I could ask her to ask him personally, but it looks like **dont ask** has already confirmed the story. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/6 "2007-12-19T22:30:47Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] First: Nope. No way. At least, not in a casino. If you muck, it’s over… [/QUOTE] In **don’t ask** ’s link’s story, it was the dealer who incorrectly grabbed the cards and mucked them, not the player. What’s the rule there? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/7 "2007-12-19T23:08:12Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] In **don’t ask** ’s link’s story, it was the dealer who incorrectly grabbed the cards and mucked them, not the player. What’s the rule there? [/QUOTE] Relevant sections of Robert’s Rules of Poker: > [@](#): > > ## Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player. > > ## You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it. > > To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not. As told, TJ had no claim on the pot. But then, I wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/8 "2007-12-19T23:46:01Z")
FWIW, in every poker game I’ve played, you can’t legally remain in a deal with an “unclean” hand (as would be the case if one or more of your cards were mucked). Of course, if your opponent is willing to shove the chips in your direction without checking … ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/9 "2007-12-19T23:46:35Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] …As told, TJ had no claim on the pot. But then, I wasn’t there. [/QUOTE] He wouldn’t have a claim if challenged, but it looks like the other player (Edmunds) got burned by his habit of hiding his face so much he couldn’t see anything happening at his table. This part of the rules you cite: > [@](#): > > To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not. doesn’t apply unless there’s a showdown, and Edmunds folded. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/10 "2007-12-19T23:49:04Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] Relevant sections of Robert’s Rules of Poker: “To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.” [/QUOTE] This surprises me - you must show your cards even if everyone folds? ETA: Answered by the previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/11 "2007-12-19T23:59:13Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] In **don’t ask** ’s link’s story, it was the dealer who incorrectly grabbed the cards and mucked them, not the player. What’s the rule there? [/QUOTE] In every casino I’ve ever been in if it’s mucked it’s mucked. If it was the dealer’s fault they get an apology and probably a comp, but the hand is still over. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/12 "2007-12-20T02:26:16Z")
Great story. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/13 "2007-12-20T22:03:51Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] He wouldn’t have a claim if challenged, but it looks like the other player (Edmunds) got burned by his habit of hiding his face so much he couldn’t see anything happening at his table. This part of the rules you cite: doesn’t apply unless there’s a showdown, and Edmunds folded. [/QUOTE] True, but the point is that TJ had folded first, by the rules of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/14 "2007-12-20T22:24:02Z")
Note that the story doesn’t say that Cloutier was awarded the pot. Cloutier’s cards were accidentally mucked. Regardless, he bet his last chips and his opponent folded. Stopping it there, it’s a great story. For all we know, as soon as the dealer started pushing the pot toward Cloutier someone noticed he didn’t have any cards and the floorman came over and untangled a twenty minute squabble by ruling that everyone got their money back. With that part, it’s not a great story. The point is not whether Cloutier raked the chips. The point is that Cloutier bluffed out an opponent while holding no cards. ---
**Author:** ![FlightlessBird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cdc98d/32.png) [@FlightlessBird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlightlessBird)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/15 "2007-12-20T22:38:06Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > Everyone but Wayne saw it. Are you saying if you folded to a better play (assuming you’re good enough to recognize it) and then noticed the player didn’t have any cards (and the table admits to the manner in which that happened: ie dealer mucked the cards) you would contest the hand? I don’t think I would. Especially against a legend like him. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poker-trivia-r-e-tj-cloutier/430530/16 "2007-12-20T23:15:32Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] The point is that Cloutier bluffed out an opponent while holding no cards. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=FlightlessBird] Are you saying if you folded to a better play… and then noticed the player didn’t have any cards… you would contest the hand? I don’t think I would. Especially against a legend like him. [/QUOTE] The story shows Cloutier has the smarts, guts, and luck to bluff his ass off, but only did so because he had a bead on his oblivious opponent. Don’t try what you read about here at home. He’s what you call a “professional.” but… The real lesson from the story is _fucking pay attention_.